Ed,

THANKS SO MUCH for spending time with us and giving us access to all this great stuff.

Now let's pray we can study and contextualize, each one for our unique neck of the woods!

Blessing on you, your family, and your ministry.

"Movemental" Christianity? I like it! One of my mantras is we have to move from maintaining institutions to advancing a movement (ummm, sort of like the church in Acts). Study the history of Great Awakenings. For example, in the First Great Awakening among the Presbyterians the "New Side," pro-revival group saw the number of ministers (representing the number of churches) grow from 22 to 72 in a 13 year period, while "Old Side" numbers dropped from 25 to 22 in the same period. You see similar results in the rise of Methodism, Pietism, and among the English Baptists beginning in the latter 18th century. Movements change things. May God give us a fresh movement of His Spirit that gives us a new PERSPECTIVE on ministry in our day.

Ed,
Under Movemental Christianity there is no text on the Incarnation slide. What did you have there?
Thanks

April 26, 2008

Dear Alan Hirsch, Ed Stetzer, and Neil Cole,

I am sending this same note to all of you. I was at the Exponential conference this week, and I took the missional track that you guys led. It was absolutely excellent – extremely applicable for our church’s context of ministry. Thank you for your leadership. I believe you all did an outstanding job.

I have a dangerous question, and I believe you all will answer honestly. All three of you made intimations that it would almost be better if we did not have professional staff leading our churches. Ed, you referenced this as clergification. Alan, you made reference that the senior pastor was not all that different to the catholic priest and often dominates the church from the pastor/teacher gift. Neil, I think you were the most overt with these comments as you talked about the four quadrants of motivation and addressed the issue of being motivated by pay. You said that our churches may even be healthier if we didn’t pay people for ministry, but then stopped short with your implication and said you didn’t want to get “too revolutionary.”

It almost appeared to me and to the five of other staff I brought that you all think the church would be healthier without full-time paid pastors. Is this true? The reason I am asking is because I am teaching through the book of I Cor. and last week I was studying the first half of chapter 9 where Paul says he has a right to compensation in ministry but he gives up that right not to hinder the advancement of the gospel. I told my wife as I was studying last week about the outrageous thought of going off the payroll for a year or for a specified period of time, and perhaps even the entire staff as well, to give the church back to the people. I know – a crazy idea.

We are a church of 800 with many full and part-time staff. What if we all voluntarily resigned or agreed to find another job for a year and volunteered our time as an experiment? Doing this may force the church to be healthier and not rely on a professional staff to do what they should do.

We just made a major change in our church by pretty much eliminating all the ministries of our church and gathering most people into missional communities that meet weekly within the community. This was about a 12 month transition in the making that we kicked off the first of April with 25 groups meeting all over the city (Fort Wayne, IN).

What do you all think about this idea? Have you ever heard of a church laying off all their staff for philosophy of ministry reasons even though the church is growing rapidly? Could it backfire?

The other major thing our staff discussed from your sessions is blowing up our Sunday morning services. People cannot come to consume if you remove what consumers want (excellent and practical preaching, and powerful music). What if we turned our Sunday morning services to training and leadership development for all the missional communities? What if we no longer had sermons and worship music in the typical sense? Instead, we would emphasize the missional impulse and development of the communities during that time. Could this backfire?

I would be very interested in your feedback on these thoughts.

Thanks.

Chris Norman

Hi.

Thanks for all your insights Ed; I really enjoyed your sharing.

You mentioned "a few prospectuses (Prospecti?)" that you would post.

...would love to take a look at some examples of church business plans.

Thanks again!

Dear Dr. Stetzer,
Sorry, I can't bring myself to call you Ed. My husband and I were at the Exponential Conference with our friends and lead planters. I was in the pre-launch track, so I had the opportunity to hear you on a couple of occassions. I am from a non-denominational background, so my preconceptions tend to cloud my judgement when it comes to denominational pastors. I can honestly say that you (and others) there made me re-think my approach to the church. While we have different beliefs, I believe that if we stay true to the Gospel of Christ and make an intentional decision to "be the church" instead of just "being in church", we still have a chance to reach the lost. Thank you for sharing your wisdom, insight and wicked sense of humor!

Kelly,

That was all there was. I just talked.

Ryan, go to here:
http://www.newchurches.com/proposals/

Chris,

You know how to make an entrance. Grin.

I have no problem with paid pastors (it is biblical). My concern is the bias against the unpaid and the clergification of ministry. All believers have a ministry, mine is just to the office of pastor. God calls us to different ministries, some are paid and some are not, but all are essential.

Chris,

Here was Neil's response in case anyone else is reading:

Bro, Here are a few thoughts that may help...

1. Paul does say it is the apostles "right" to be supported, but that
he and Barnabas have forgone that right for the furtherance of the
gospel. I believe the idea is that in pioneering works, he doesn't want
to offer the gospel at a charge. That is my own conviction, so I never
receive support from the church I am starting at the time, but will
gladly receive it once I move on.

2. Jesus sent the disciples (both the 12 and the 70) off without any
financial support. He said "do not take a purse." No reserves, no
credit cards, no plans for sustenance. They were to believe God to
provide for them and solely focus on obedience to the kingdom
principles taught in Matt 10 and Luke 10. I often wonder what
Christianity would look like if we all started this way. After their
faith and obedience are demonstrated (tested?), Jesus later says, "Now,
take a purse." (Luke 22?) The idea is that you do not know how to
handle money until you know how to go forward without it. Once you
prove that your heart is right and your faith is sound, then financial
support is fine...as long as it is releasing you to do more of what you
do already. The idea of employment is foreign to the NT. You are owned
by Jesus, not any other. Job descriptions, office hours, performance
reviews, raises, lay-offs, bonuses, etc...have no place in God's
kingdom. This is not a business enterprise but a Kingdom and each are
agents under Christ's command and none other. He will not place the
order and then not pay the bill.

3. There were many times Paul made tents, but also times when he served
"full time" while others worked to support him. He never took money
from his new churches, but accepted it when he moved on (i.e.
Philippians). There is not one model for how this works in the NT and
not even one only for Paul himself.

We have many who are moving this direction with radical faith and God
is honoring. The last chapter of my next book (Organic Leadership) is
story after story of church planters who ventured off away from secure
salaries to live by faith and using their entrepreneurial gifts. Each
story is unique and powerful. Often additional "side-effects" occur
that no one expected...like greater respect in the community and
fruitfulness in transforming a city. Often they end up having much
greater financial support then they would have had in "professional
ministry".

Re. what to do Sunday Mornings...

Ed Waken started a church in Phoenix area. He transitioned to a more
organic network, but they already had a once a week service. Rather
then just kill it, they decided to apply kingdom ideas with it. Now
they do things like prayer walk one Sunday...paint a elderly woman's
house and mow her lawn the next week, and have a picnic at the park the
week after that. Just to keep 'em guessing, occasionally they will even
have a Sunday morning worship service, but the idea is that these are
all options for the family to do, and all are equally important.

One word of caution, do not underestimate the lack of faith your people
may suffer from. They may not want to follow you on this and may look
to hire someone else. What you are doing is challenging ordinary
Christians to take up the kingdom for themselves and many may prefer
remaining irresponsible. I do not know enough about your church and
history to counsel on this, but Jesus loves the old wine and the new,
and so He doesn't want to spill a drop of either. Old wine skins do
have a place and a value. In fact, we do know that older, more aged
wine is usually better wine. So we need both old and new wine skins.

The bottom line: we have to simply hear God's voice and follow His
lead...where ever it may take us. We should not simply fall to the
default of what everyone else has done or what we have always
experienced. If you follow him in faith you will not be disappointed!
You will see great things.