Good words Ed. Sane, Christian words. I agree with your assessment and continue to pray and work for the change that we need.

Ed, I never comment on blogs but in this instance I will make an exception. I could not agree with your assessment more! I go to bed thinking about this every night and wake up the same.We are in serious trouble. Our denomination is at a crisis moment and we will either repent, seek the forgiveness and mercy of God and perhaps experience a true and geniune revival from our Lord, or we will continue our present course and simply fade away with the Lord Jesus justly removing His hand of blessing. May God show us His mercy, break our hearts, and give us a love for Jesus and the lost that consumes us with a holy passion.

Brother Ed,

Thank you for the insightful words which remind us of the coming tragedy. May the Lord do whatever it takes to wake us up and revive our hearts to His will, work and way.

Thanks Danny for your comments as well.

Wow! I mean completely wow! You have hit so many nails on the head. We need to focus as a denomination solely on Christ and on reaching the lost; not the other stuff. The "Conservative Resurgence" did good with its stressing the inerrancy of scripture. But, like you said, if we aren't reaching others, why did we bother? And, unfortunately, there seems to be a movement in at least certain parts of the denomination towards uniformity - "If you ain't like us, you're missing the boat somewhere!" But the only way to get younger leaders and minority leaders is to allow people that are very different from the stereotype to be leaders while they are being themselves.
And you made such a good point when you said that people don't want to hear what we have to say if we do not even speak kindly to each other.

Two things popped into my head when I read this. The first was a memory of a prominent Bible Teacher in the 1980's making the statement that if revival and spiritual awakening were going to come to America it would be through the SBC. He was not a Southern Baptist.
The second thing I remembered was a seminary prof at SWBTS in the late 80's who said these simple words to me "What we are doing isn't working."
Somehow I dreamed we would go out and change that. I graduated from Seminary almost 20 years ago. Today I am filled with repentance that I feel I have never stayed the course I should have done more, or run better.

humbling

This is what we need to be tallking about. The little booklet "Building Bridges" provides an excellent resource both for assessment of where we have been as a denomination, who we are now, and the challenges we must face if we expect to be involved in God's redemptive activity going forward.

Thanks Ed.

Ed, yours are words that should wake us from our slumber. I hope they resonate at Indy and beyond. And you're right, a new plan won't fix this one. May God humble us and break us to mold us into His image.

It seems like saying we've "peaked" is assuming a little too much: it moves from observing the data and into predicting the future (ie. this won't be turned around). A peak is the highest point. I'm not ready to say we've gotten there yet. It will take years to know the truth of that statement. But this is certainly alarming and a wake-up call to us pastors.

On the other hand, I would argue that some decline is needed. How many 'missing' members are the result of churches updating their membership roles? Do we have any way of knowing?

Great words. Thanks for being transparent. I was raised SBC and it pains me to hear this. It's been almost a decade since a few people in my home church recognized what this report is confirming. It was easy to see, but hard to change.

Maybe something really radical should be done, like canning all of the conventions and create church planting & coaching/resource organizations only - then have churches tithe back to them.

Has there ever been an SBC study to find out the common factors among the fastest growing (based on baptisms) SBC churches? I guarantee almost all of them won't look like or act like most SBC churches.

Andy Stanley says complex organizations are dumb and the SBC is pretty complex. Fortunately there are great leaders in the SBC all throughout, not just Ed & Thom Rainer types so hopefully things will change.

Thank you for this blog post. We, as Southern Baptists, do need to re-focus. So many times, the world knows exactly what we are against (and the list is long) as opposed to what we are for: New Life in Jesus Christ.

Mr. Stetzer,

I just read through your blog felt it necessary to share my experiences as a Southern Baptist minister. I have been pastoring full time now for almost 5 years. I am currently working on my D.Min through Midwestern. I received my M.Div. from Southwestern and my BA from Wayland Baptist University in TX. I share that simply to show that I have been well aquainted with the Baptist way of life. Since I began preaching I have heard repeatedly how great it is to have someone young preaching the Word of God. I began preaching at 18. I am now 30. You wrote that the SBC is in decline for a number of reasons. First, our evanglism is non-existent, our motto on unity seems to be "divide and spread..." but worst, our churches, as a whole, are so caught up in the growth and functioning of the 50's that they are choking themselves out.

I am currently serving in my second church as pastor, but every Southern Baptist Church I have ever been a part of is literally choking to death on traditionalism. The church becomes more and more irrelevant every year and those who are committed to the 1950's see the reduced numbers as proof that they are right. (How's that for twisted logic?) I have seen it multiple times already in my ministry life as youth minister and as a pastor. The traditionalists will ride a church clear down to the ground and feel completely justified in doing so. This, however, is not the real tragedy of the situation.

As these churches decline, a certain kind of panic sets in that new members are now necessary so they will hire a new "YOUNG" pastor to reach a younger generation so the church can move forward into the future. They stand up and affirm how important the next generation of believers are to the church, pat the new pastor on the back and tell him to "go get 'em". This is where a very unpleasant reality for the young pastor introduces itself. He alone has the responsibility to convince unbelievers not only to come to church, but to accept and embrace an outdated, ineffective, self-centered way of doing things in the church. Now, the pastor is in an impossible place. He wants the reach people, but he doesn't want to lose his job doing his job either, so NOTHING HAPPENS.

Traditionalism in Southern Baptist Life must die. If it means that the SBC declines for a few years while these churches that are completely irrelevant finally die off, so be it. See, the answer is not simply getting younger leaders into churches. There are plenty of young leaders out there willing to take the reigns and do their best, mistakes and all. The problem is many Southern Baptist Churches will not let them. After only 5 years of pastoring I am already so gunshy about trying ANYTHING new that I feel at times I have given up. This is not complaining, it is simply the truth. Personally, I am probably one opportunity away from leaving the SBC ministry for something more modern and relevant. But, for now, God has kept me in the SBC.

I do not claim to have significant answers for church growth, but I have already learned a great deal about church death. Most of our Southern Baptist Churches must change or die. Unfortunately, most would rather die, which is exactly what we are seeing today. Young leaders can't change this mindset and we are already tired of trying. This is why so many young leaders are leaving the SBC and starting Non-Denom churches. They simply cannot stand being forcefed traditions that are choking the life out of everyone they touch.

Roger
--
And while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

Ed,

I can only say "amen". Well, I can also say I'm equally concerned over the presence ... or absence ... of the Holy Spirit in the mix. I cannot believe He's pleased with what you referenced as an "inflated statistic". Personally, I think we're seeing the de-Spiritualization that started via a political solution to Spiritual problems, and now is so evident in the public scorning of what the Bible describes as a Spiritual gift whose choice of bestowal is that of the Holy Spirit.

And tons of other things not directly related thereto.

Brother Ed,

Been a while since I last dialogged with you. :) Certainly do miss sitting on that couch in the lower level of the building at Ridgecrest along with 5 other pastors. Seems like it was just yesterday.

As usual I have a couple of questions. As you know I will question stats, and I have Dr. Yarnell to verify my math. :)

Seriously, If we are concerned that the numbers are falling in the SBC overall, why such a big push on small churches? Certainly we would like to understand that as small churches they are new church plants, but that does not seem to be what I am hearing when it comes to the cry for small churches. Second, would you say that your research is based solely on the membership totals that were dropping? IOW, did anyone look to see if there was a parallel increase in other denomination or non-denominational churches before making the claim that the SBC is in decline? For sometime now I have been hearing 'regenerate church members' and how each church should be removing the 'dead wood' from their roles. Could this be a result of churches taking serious that call? If it is, then would you still consider the SBC to be in decline? If this 'decline' is from churches taking seriously regenerate church membership, then we must admit that there really is no decline. How can you be going backwards if you remove something that was not causing you forward momentum?

Just some thoughts that have went through my brain as I read your post. Of course after spending some time together you know that most of these thoughts get depressed for lack of friends and commit suicide. :) But, nevertheless they are still alive and floating so I thought I would allow them to float into this river.

Blessings,
Tim

PS, You know you have posted something of significance when Dr. Akin comes out of the background and comments. Great subject matter.

Wow...That just happened. Unbeliveably poignant posting.

The most basic problem is this: The SBC needs leaders who love people. The SBC needs leaders who are likeable. We do these two things, it solves nearly every problem we have.

We have so many leaders, pastors, etc, who just aren't likeable.

Read the following books by Tim Sanders:
The Likeability Factor
Love is the Killer App

Ed, Why don't you tell us what you really think? :)

Good words my friend. Very good words indeed. Thank you for revealing and discussing a very serious issue--perhaps the only issue currently on the SBC table worthy of serious discussion!

Roger,

A kindred spirit, brother. A hearty amen to everything you just said.

what needs to be shouted from the rooftops is that many of our people, maybe even the majority, aren't teachable. They are members, but they aren't disciples.

By no means am I wanting to discourage any brother or sister who reads this, but my view is that this trend continues until membership in our churches actually means anything remotely close to the Biblical teachings. I suspect that could be another decade or more, and that we will also be tempted to go liberal or emergent in order to reverse the tide and refill our buildings. Let us be wise, beloved.

ed,
do we know what, if any, age range in which baptisms increased?

I really am curious.

kbh

Ed, thanks! Wow, this is so insightful, good stuff!

I didn't know there was an official decline.

I wonder if the decline in membership is partly from SBCers moving to non-denom churches (lots of hot new church plants seem to be non-denom and targeting young evangelicals) - which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I feel like the time of denominations is passing, but "church networks" seem to be the thing.

Great post Ed.

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment and would add that what we are seeing in baptism and attendance is only the proverbial tip of the ice-burg. The real pain will come when annual contributions start sliding down the bell curve. As the builder generation fades, and the busters drift, there will be a HUGE decline in annual giving IMHO.

This year, I have two young couples in my church wanting on the mission field who have been disqualified by baptism policy on the IMB board. As a trustee I have no answers for them (I will not demean their Biblical baptism). My observation is that it is becoming increasingly difficult for a younger generation to reconcile what many perceive as narrowing positions outside of the gospel. We are marginalizing churches at the exact wrong time. Our young congregations and young pastors will just find other avenues as this continues. It is only my opinion, but I believe the decline will be dramatic and painful. I am already seeing the signs- and you post only confirms it.

Ed, I am a Lumbee Indian. I graduated from Southeasern in 2000. The sbc convention has never really had a personality to reach out to more ethnic people. We have a good old boy network that represents the God Fathers of the convention. We are known more for what we fight against than what we fight for. When will the red neck fundamentialism ever die.

This is not surprising at all. George Barna has been reporting similar trends for more than two decades. The reality is that all institutional expressions of church are in decline. Some folks are leaving SBC churches but many are abandoning all forms of institutional church.

This is a huge transition that cannot be contained by programmatic changes, doctrinal positions, worship styles, etc. This is a complete re-formation of the church. Very few in the SBC realize how out of touch they are with the reality of this change. In a few short decades there may not be an SBC, state conventions and maybe no institutional expressions of the local church either. This is just the tip of a huge iceberg.

When individual Believers forget their "First Love", the church spirals out of control and loses momentum. The SBC is me. I think the negativity and not dwelling on that which is positive is the main problem. Can you do a research on what people love about the SBC and the blessings afforded them through her? Can you do a research on why we love to go to church on Sundays, Mondays, Tuesdays--etc.? Can you do a research on how the Lord is manifesting Himself within the current SBC churches that are growing in leaps and bounds? Can we get a witness? selahV

Wow, you go bro! I'm Southern Baptist blooded to the point of embarassment, actually denial. I've prayed the sinner's prayer with young adults and not felt comfortable at all in bringing them into the church. I trembled as one reported to me what went on around them in a committee meeting. There is no wonder young adults have turned their backs on such atrocities done in the name of God--the church. If I have a missional heart doing the work of evangelism, just where can I realistically ask them to link with believers who actually believe? Yes, I'm broken. Yes, I'm ashamed. And yes, I'm near ready to dust my feet. God help us to return to our first love!!

Ed,
I wonder if more Southern Baptist leaders will heed your words now that you've got even more clear data to back up what you've been saying for some time now.

I think many younger leaders have decided not to let the SBC hold them back, and have moved on. I guess I consider myself indifferent toward most of it.

I nothing the Southern Baptist Convention.

I agree with your comments. I left th Southern Baptist denomination and went to the Assembly of God only because I felt I was shut out after the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. I am about to finish my degree with Lee University and am wanting to go back to a baptist church but I feel this will not happened due to my stand on spiritual gifts. I do constantly pray for the SBC.

Great information! Thank you Ed Stetzer and LifeWay for tackling these issues. For me Roger Smith’s comments (above) stated it perfectly. I really believe the “traditional” generation is in its final cycle and without malice I have to say it seems to be fading away. I have not Pastored a Church, but I have been a Minister of Students, Church Planter and pulpit supply preacher and I could have written the same comment as Roger because I have lived through the exact same thing (in two states – LA & MS).

Sobering,

Could it be that the CR left a trail of broken people? What I see is move to exclude people from the SBC rather than work together for the sake of the Gospel.

If you tell creative minds "NO" long enough they will find somewhere else to go.

My apologies for not responding to all the comments.

I am speaking at a church planting conference all day today. I will try to respond later today.

Ed

Ed - you really have hit the nail on the head.

Roger -

Amen, brother. I don't men this funny, but, "I feel your pain" for it is mine. I love the church I pastor (125 years old and growing more innovative), but pastored a church that I was embarrased to invite the lost to.

One series of thoughts, however. The church I pastor does "the Lifeway thing" because we were all immersed in it in seminary. I don't mean to step on toes, but the open Sunday school model is one of the problems. We don't have much depth to offer folks if we go "the traditional Sunday morning" route.

If training union were still possible, it would work to race through a book of the Bible in 16, 45 minute sessions, but we are faced with a terrible problem that traditional Sunday school just doesn't face. The problem stems from not facing up to the time-crunch of modern society. Our complicated lives, coupled with the fact that many of our members are Sunday morning only folks, keeps us from developing mature disciples through the open, evangelistic model of Sunday school that most Educational ministers espouse. If Sunday morning is the ONLY time you can still get them to commit to come, we better start offering some different approaches to Sunday Morning education that offer more depth.

I know, Lifeway produces products for a variety of purposes, but the problem lies in Educational Ministers and pastors (like me) who are reluctant to abandon the open class model. Educational approaches need to be vastly improved with the "Sunday morning only" time slot in mind. IMHO.

BTW, I will believe there is true repentance in our denomination when I see strong efforts to reconcile and reunite the SBC and CBF, and competing state conventions. Yes, there are differences, but we need to show the world that the people who believe they will be together in eternity can be together in temporality, too.

Just my humble opinion, but I have great hope for saving a once great denomination. When we rejoice in reaching people for Christ, even if it may be in an emergent, cowboy, contemporary, seeker, social, or traditional model, then we will show signs of healing and faith as a denomination (Romans 14:1-4, 13-15).

Ben Macklin

Thanks, Ed.

I am doing a great deal of historical research on Southern Baptists and the race issue/Civil Rights Movement. As I study, talk with people, and consider my own experiences, I find it impossible to see how we could have been blessed by God as a denomination for some time now. I think that this decline set in long ago and we are just starting to see the clear results. Unless we truly repent and do more than just make statements or draw up strategies, we are in for a slow, but sure death. God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. What is true personally becomes true corporately.

Fortunately, there is grace. If we would just turn to the Lord and make things right with those that we have sinned against, I believe that God would pour out blessing upon us. Isaiah 58 provides a great understanding of this. The problem is, we have so many "leaders" who think that they know which way we should go, and very little of it is biblical.

We do not need more evangelism initiatives. God save us from more plans and programs.

We do not need more meaningless statements.

We do not need more calls for revival and useless introspection.

We need a movement of the Holy Spirit that will cause us to right some pretty severe wrongs in our lives, our churches, and our communities.

We need to dramatically humble ourselves. If we remain in our pride, God says that He will oppose us. It is clear that is what is happening.

SelahV:
Here's the good news...

this illness is treatable.

Dearest Ed,

Thanks for this post. As always, you do provoke thought. However, there are so many assumptions that have gone into your statements, that it is impossible to evaluate them with any depth. Perhaps you would be willing to spell out your thoughts more with detail. For instance, consider these five issues raised in your post:

(1) Why should we assume that the Conservative Resurgence has not led to a Great Commission Resurgence in the hearts of conservative Southern Baptists? Perhaps there is a passion for the Great Commission that is already existing in our churches. Perhaps the churches are busy proclaiming God's Word, but the Spirit in His sovereignty has not yet seen fit to bless us with the numbers we desire to see. Perhaps our focus should be less upon meeting statistical goals and more upon simply being faithful with what responsibilities we have been granted.

(2) Exactly who are these "young leaders" that we are losing? Are they the leaders that God has brought to the fore amongst our churches? If so, have their churches left the SBC? Moreover, may not the elevation of these "young leaders" actually be the very source of the "young vs. old" division that is decried? Moreover, in promoting young leaders, do we not take the risk of downplaying the elders who the churches have chosen to lead them?

(3) Exactly who among our churches has lost their focus upon the gospel? Is the implication that somehow our churches have forsaken the gospel? How do we verify this rather sharp claim, which, if true, indicates that our churches are no longer, in essence, churches? Needless to say, this is perhaps the most troubling issue raised, for without the gospel, we have no hope of salvation.

(4) When did we ever decide that our theology was "in order"? Can any of us really claim to have reached perfection in the development of doctrine, apart from standing complete in our salvation before the heavenly throne? Should we not always be about promoting the truth and defending the faith? Is the theological task ever truly finished this side of the Second Coming?

(5) Exactly what "parameters" have been narrowed in the SBC? Have we not, at our best, been about preserving the faith once for all delivered to the saints? Who, among us, are busy about narrowing parameters of cooperation? Could it be that the parameters have stayed the same but those parameters are no longer appreciated by everyone?

Thanks, my old friend, for raising these important issues. I look forward to our clarifying theology and practice together as Southern Baptists who believe that this is a truly great convention of churches. Let us be the best disciples we can be to the Lord who died on a cross and rose from the dead for us by going, making disciples, baptizing, and teaching all things that Christ has commanded us, even when those things are resisted, even when those very things bring us to frank yet friendly conversations.

In Christ,
Malcolm

From a young SBC church planter who has wrestled with these issues for the past several years, thank you for your boldness in addressing them, Ed.

One word of caution that I will add, particularly for those leaders of my generation and others who are "missionally" minded:

We must be very careful that we do not simply leave the ninety-nine (the institutional church and its transformation-restricting traditions) and then make our focus articulating all the ways that we are different from them. Jesus said that the only acceptable reason to leave the ninety-nine was to "go after the one which is lost." Unfortunately, I fear that many of us, in our desire to see the mistakes of the past and present corrected, have missed this vital point.

Help me understand how this is bad news. If denom numbers are inflated, and if churches practicing discipine and meaningful membership etc. results (often) in smaller numbers, can't this be an expected trend or perhaps even encouraging news in that our numbers are lower but more realistic? Or could it not indicate positive trends, for instance, churches that take baptism more seriously and really screen candidates might have fewer baptisms, but we wouldnt lament that, right? I guess it doesnt necessarily strike me as bad news. I am ready to stand corrected, however.

It's hard for me to add to all that has been said. One thought however. Last week our church hosted a series of meetings (we used to call them revival meetings and people stopped attending, so now we call them Bible conferences). The young man (he's 38 and I'm ancient-51) made a comment that was interesting. (He is a full time evangelist living in the Northwest- scraping by- literally.) He commented that the growth of Southern Baptist's in the 50's and beyond was the result of a few decades of seed-planting. He wondered if we have become too numerically minded to remember what it is to plant and wait...
Just a thought from a small church pastor - waiting desperately for a harvest!

Ed:
You know I am not a huge fan of stats, although my intuition is always better when affirmed by statistical evidence :-). But the evidence you offer only gives further warrant to the reality we must admit--we are in great danger as a convention if we do not see a Great Commission Resurgence. I am not one of those who likes to poo poo on the Conservative Resurgence. Many of us would not even be in the SBC were it not for that. I certainly would not be able to have the joy of teaching so many great young seminarians at SOUTHEASTERN of all places had there not been a radical change. And, I know it is easy just to be critical. There is so much good and I praise God for all He is doing in our Baptist Zion.
But we have to be honest. We are not changing the culture. We are not penetrating the hard core unchurched population. We are hardly reaching our own children. Or are we even doing that? Just a few thoughts:
1. The greatest 5 years of baptisms ever came 1971-75 during the era of the Jesus Movement. We also baptized far more youth in those years than any other (not only in ratio to SBC population but also to the US population). We are pathetic at reaching young people but man we can build our youth buildings. Institutions are not the answer. We would rather be cool when youth need the gospel. We need a movement of evangelism among the youth population.
2. Rainer has noted a survey where something like 53% of pastors had not shared Christ in the previous six months. If you are a pastor and do not preach, or meet with deacons, or visit the sick for six months you are in jeopardy with your people. But our institutional, building-focused church culture allows a pastor to share the gospel hardly ever and still be a fine pastor. Our culture needs a change. A program will not fix that. A movement will.
3. The cities. I do not have the stats before me but we are not reaching the great cities of the US. We have billions of net worth but seem to go after the cities like liberal democrats, throwing a little money here and there with little to show long term. God give us a long term strategy to reach the cities and to be good stewards of our resources for the gospel.
4. Conformity--we tend to follow a path of least resistance, conformity-based approach to leadership, which may explain why there are so few leaders today. We need CONFORMITY in DOCTRINE, and CREATIVITY/FLEXIBILITY in PRACTICE. We are arguing over preferences like middle schoolers while the world is racing toward hell. To paraphrase a friend whom I will not name but whose initials are ES, we are sacrificing our future on the altar of our preferences.
Yes, in 1959 when I was born the SBC churches looked amazingly similar across the nation. That day will never return. Solid, expositional preaching, passionate gospel proclamation, fervent, God honoring worship, and missional living are some things that do not change, but how we apply that may. Interestingly one could argue that we are seeing some of the best in expository preaching today in new churches in the urban setting with men who preach for an hour or more to thousands of young adults hungry for truth. But they may wear (heaven forbid) a collared shirt rather than a tie. I speak at a lot of youth and college events and am convinced I preach much better without a tie haha.
5. Family--we in the SBC pride ourselves in our focus on the family, and we have done so much good overall. But I have been asking for some time these questions of audiences--1. How many of you grew up in a Christian home (about 90%)? 2. How many of you ever remember your family sitting down to talk about reaching your lost neighbors (about THREE percent)? We wonder why our kids grow up in church and abandon the faith. We don't even reach out to our neighbors.
6. I will quit with this, one short of the number of perfection--our evangelism has been institutional and attractional. It must become missional and incarnational. The incarnation is not only theology, it is also strategy! We are amazingly good at attractional evangelism. We can have a Samaritan night and reach the Samaritans. We should continue doing what we do well. Last week I took my class out and we went door to door and saw one come to Christ. But we must add without subtracting. We must add a missional focus, so that when we leave our church buildings and enter restaurants people won't wonder what happened to us when we deny what we just sang at worship by the sorry tip we leave and the sorry attitude we have. We must admit that the true measure of our CHristianity is not the saved people we impress but the lost people we influence.
Okay. I am sorry for being so long. We are on break and I have been thinking too much. I am waking up in the wee hours of the morning with a broken heart. I remember in the early 1980s wondering if I could be a Southern Baptist in 20 years if we could not affirm an inerrant Bible. Thank God for heroes who stood for truth. Now, for my students and others like them, I see a generation wanting someone to say they can stand on that same truth and at the same time be the people God called them to be, even if it does not look just like the Baptist church down the street.
I am not a whiner or complainer by nature. But beloved, we need a change. I speak to so many youth and college students every year. They want to change the world. Let us let them. let us help them.

Malcolm: AMEN!

Malcolm:
Greetings my brother. I pray you are seeing your semester move toward a blessed conclusion this spring.
I am thankful for your thoughtful points. I would like to venture a bit of a response to some in the hopes of fostering further helpful dialogue.
On your first point, I would say that indeed the Conservative Resurgence (CR) has led some to seek a Great Commission Resurgence (GCR), including me. I would say we would not be having this discussion were it not for the CR. However, I think we would be hard pressed to say with confidence we should simply do what we are doing, for I fear if we do we will keep getting what we have been getting. Baptisms have been flatlined for 50 years. Take into consideration population growth and we have been in sustained decline. I would argue that if CP receipts declined the past decade like baptisms we would be on near panic stage, but that is likely a topic for another day. I would simply say that people like me who are convinced we need a GCR get that from the CR. Lutheranism needed the missionary impetus from Pietism a century after her beginnings, and maybe we need the same.
On your second point I can only speak anecdotally, but with some confidence. For several semesters I have asked our students "how many of you came from an SBC church?" The vast majority. Then I ask, "How many of you want to go back and serve a church just like that?" Almost none. These are seminarians, the ones we still have, and they see a serious need for change. Again, this is anecdotal and simplistic, but here is another idea--have someone do a survey of current seminarians to find out who they listen to on podcasts? Might be revealing.
I will cease and desist at this point. I look forward to further dialogue. I am so amazingly grateful that we have seminaries, yes in the plural, that are interested in grappling with these issues. I am actually very excited in the future given the amazing students I get to teach. I just want to teach them well, and the issues we are discussing here are vital!

Dr. Yarnell,

I love you. You must be in a wonderful time of bliss.

Ed, thanks for this word. Sadly, the warning signs have been there for years, but nobody seemed to want to listen. I wish I could have confidence that things will change, but I am afraid it will not.

Dr. Reid,
We've never met, but I've always liked a lot of what you have to say.

Dr. Reid,

You write; Baptisms have been flatlined for 50 years. You are the Prof of Evangelism that I respect and desire to emulate with the passion I see in you. Tell me why you believe the Baptisms are flatlined? 50 years is 1958, but you say that best years for Baptisms is 71-73. Did those years produce a spike?

Also, you said before that; I think we would be hard pressed to say with confidence we should simply do what we are doing... I do not want to answer for Dr. Yarnell, but I do not believe he is advocating that we keep doing what we have been doing. Can you help me understand how we do evangelism and maintain Baptist as that is who we are. I know the Emerging church is doing great things. However, how do we move forward without throwing Baptism by immersion (just one example of Baptist Identity) out of the window?

Blessings,
Tim

You might be interested to know that David Dockery's latest book is due out soon and offers a way forward for the SBC. The book is titled, Southern Baptist Consensus and Renewal (Nashville: B&H Academic, 2008).

Is it possible that the drop in baptisms represents a resurgence in discernment in evangelistic counseling, especially among our little children and teens?

Perhaps the baptism rate is dropping because some are not giving in to the pressure to lower the bar of what true conversion consists of in order to keep up with our denominational goals for baptisms, which has led to 10 million+ SBC members being AWOL.

Maybe we are baptizing fewer unbelievers, wouldn't that be a good thing?
If that is true, maybe we are seeing more people saved, despite the lower baptism numbers?

this maybe crazy talk, its been a long day.

Dr. Yarnell,

Yes, younger leaders are either leaving or are not engaging to begin with. I am 33 years old. I am the youngest person by 10-15 years at nearly every Baptist gathering I go to. They think I'm a youth minister. Where are my peers? Where are the people I went to seminary with? They are not pastoring churches - at least not very many of them.

Yes, we are losing the gospel. I would say that if it takes 47 Southern Baptists to lead 1 person to Christ each year, we have already functionally lost the proclamation of the gospel, at the very least. Whether we believe it or not and on what level is for God to decide, I suppose. But, faith without works is dead and it appears that death is encroaching upon us. By the way, the ratio in my church last year was 13:1 and our leadership is concerned and we are seeking God for a greater increase in evangelism. I only say that to say that we are becoming gripped with an urgency to see people know the Lord. I don't think that it is bragging to say that God's Spirit is moving among us and is producing Biblical fruit.

It seems that we continually want to say "Peace, Peace," when there is no peace. We want to make sure that if we are on the watch then nothing is going wrong, yet white papers galore will be written about the dangers of contextualization amongst other groups. It appears that Southern Baptists have contextualized the gospel to oblivion over the years as we completely adapted to the sins of Southern culture, yet there is little awareness of how that partnership has neutered the power of our witness. We must come out of such an arrangement and call our churches to Biblical faith before it is too late. Or, maybe it already is for many of us.

And yes, it appears that many "churches" that claim to be churches are nothing of the sort. What they are, I don't know, but they do not appear to be biblical churches, even though they have "Baptist" on the sign.

If I may clarify my earlier comment, which was a bit more obscure than I intended:

I fear that many young leaders, especially church planters, have stepped away from "tradition" and mistakenly assumed that this in itself made them "missional." I was one such young church planter. My experience has taught me, however, that the proper order is not "jettison tradition and thus become missional," rather, it is "go after the lost and the Holy Spirit will make it clear what traditions, if any, hinder mission and need to be dropped."

Beyond this, "traditional" does not necessarily mean "not missional." I don't know of a more missional church than Redeemer Presbyterian, and yet I dare say they are far more "traditional" than most any SBC church I know of!

Alvin Reid wrote:I see a generation wanting someone to say they can stand on that same truth and at the same time be the people God called them to be, even if it does not look just like the Baptist church down the street.

After reading this, I simply had to affirm your conviction and honor my mentor and pastor, Dr. Johnny Hunt. If it were not for Dr. Hunt's encouragement, understanding, and allowing me to be who God made me to be, I would not be in church ministry today. Thank God for leaders like you and Dr. Hunt who get this!

Ed-
Thanks for publishing the truth even when some around you are afraid to admit that it is the truth.

Ed,

I just wanted to express my appreciation to you for your willingness and courage to call us to gospel faithfulness. We really need this discussion; more than that, we need to let this be a mirror for us all.

I don't know, kind of reminds me of that picture Marty McFly had in "Back to the Future" where his family slowly disappearing . . .

In the 1940s and 50s, Southern Baptists became institutionalized, we came to believe that the larger body was more important than the local church. So, we looked to the denomination to tell us how to do things and when to do it. By the end of the 1960s every Baptist worship service, every Sunday School class, every Wednesday night service were all alike.

In the 1970's “cutting edge” Baptists bought into the Church Growth movement with all its statistics, studies and public relations models taken from the business world. Instead of focusing on preaching Scripture and teaching doctrine, we relied on worldly models to define church outreach.

In the 1980s the church growth movement morphed into the seeker sensitive service model of church. Soon Baptists were importing charismatic worship into Baptist churches with the claim that we must be relevant to society.

The institutionalizing of Baptist churches set us to be gullible to any kind of movement passed on to us by experts. We became consumed with pragmatic concerns. “Whatever works” became our mantra no matter what damage such programs may inflict on our churches. The concepts that we bought into, Church Growth Movement, the Seeker Sensitive worship, etc. has all lead to decline. It seems obvious that these things made church members self-centered consumers and not Christians. Instead of preaching the Word and relying on the Holy Spirit to call people out of their sin, we figured the Holy Spirit was weak and needed our help. Self-centered consumers do not go out and bear witness to Christ.

The fact is we have been in decline for decades. The FBI could not find half of the Southern Baptist membership. This has been true for the last forty years. We have been hiding behind numbers. So, we baptized more in the past years? How many of those baptized stayed in church? When you scare people into converting or make it so easy that no repentance is required, what should we expect? Which is better, fake converts whom we baptize or lower baptisms?

Pragmatism does not work, an ironic statement. Looking like the world, acting like the world, sounding like the world, does not work. If we are going to look foolish to the world, then let it be because we live as those who have been crucified and let us preach the scandal of the Cross.

Church is not a political action committee, it is not a self help group, it is not entertainment, it is not a place for self actualization. The local church is the people of God. And the people of God are aliens and strangers in a foreign land, we are not of the world. We need to be more like strangers.

I do not have confidence in numbers and in experts who spin them. I do have confidence that if we live holy lives before our living and holy Lord, then we will bear much fruit. But if we are not faithful to the call of Christ, why would he bless us? We do not need our own pragmatically induced “revival.” We have a great need for repentance and the willingness to remain in decline until we have God’s blessing.

I find it very interesting that you draw the correlation between diversity among SBC leadership and the effectiveness of the SBC in a evolving cultural landscape in America.

I think you're right. But I think this particular issue speaks of a more deeper problem. . . .

I think the SBC is in an identity crisis. Historically, culturally and even theologically the SBC has always been a proudly white denomination. Now we are trying to hold on to that familiar island and identity while all around us everything is changing.

This even challenges our political sensibilities - Illegal Immigration and public policy etc. But this is where the separation of our faith and politics are seriously challenged, to say the least.

While we resent immigrants flooding our cities and straining our economic situation . . . Do they still matter to God as people made in His image whom he longs to have a relationship with ?

Awkward stuff.

Most of us don't want to talk about diversity let alone recognize it - I mean lets be honest . . . because for many Churches we so are isolated in our cultural and geo-communal bubbles . . . it's just not on our radar screen . . . .

LEARNING TO BREATHE coming later this year . . . look for it.

Ed,

Raise your voice. You are not being heard - not in San Antonio, not in Nashville, not in many of our denominational HQ's, and evidently in too few seminaries.

The Great Commission is carried out, in a sustained way, by Great Commandment believers--but really not by anyone else. Great Commandment believers result from the activity of the Holy Spirit in yielded Christians' lives--but really not by any other means. So, no reliance upon the Holy Spirit (not a reference to anything "Charismatic") means no sustained efforts by congregations at accomplishing the Great Commission. In that sense, the SBC's numerical decline is the result of a spiritual problem.

But, if God were to restore the spiritual health of millions of SBCers and tens of thousands of SBC congregations this very moment, He'd have to do it again in about 3 weeks (it seems) as the average SBC church and its leaders--both professional and lay--have too little understanding of what to do practically with that renewal. The members of SBC congregations have not been taught how God grows churches because the leaders of SBC congregations don't know how He does it day-to-day either--despite our much learning. In this sense, the SBC's decline is an educational/infrastructure/leadership one.

The vehicle which will take SBC churches into the future is their Sunday Schools (or equivalent term for open, holistic small group Bible studies) done right by believers passionate for their Savior and their neighbors due to the Spirit's work among them--the Sunday School (or its equivalent) being the next-to-last ministry that 99.8% of all SBC congregations will give up (Sunday morning worship being the last; since we're attending and promoting SS anyway, we might as well do it right).

(This comment from a Minister of Education--who struggles with the same issues with the church he serves)

Thank you Dr. Stetzer for your bold and timely words regarding our beloved convention. I am a lifelong Southern Baptist. I think your analysis of our convention being in decline is obviously and painfully accurate. I do not believe there is one single reason as to why.

Some have attempted to negatively portray the conservative resurgence as being "all head" and "no heart." As one who has benefited from it, I believe that is patently untrue. I am thankful for the resurgence and the fruits of it in a bold return to the inerrancy of Scripture.

First, I think a much greater issue is that as a body, we could be under the chastening hand of God from years of pride and apathy toward our real condition. Anyone who knows anything about the SBC knows that we have proudly trumpeted for years that we have 16+ million members when in fact we have well less than half of that in terms of active church membership. We are a denomination of statistics and in many ways got caught up in the tide of the pragmatic church growth movement. Perhaps Holy God is saying, enough is enough, turn back to Me as your only hope and do not depend on your inflated statistics as proof of your viability. Dr. Greg Frizzell, Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma has recently written a timely and prophetic book entitled "Iceberg Dead Ahead" dealing in part with this very subject and the condition of our convention.

Second, we must consider what is happening in our culture. There has been a radical effort to deconstruct truth and the decline in morality is shocking. Families have collapsed over the past 30 years, and anything that resembles an institution has been under attack. The church at large has suffered greatly from this, not just the SBC. We are following the spiritual pattern of Europe historically, we just are not quite as far down the path though it is coming quickly. The culture has changed dramatically around us and we have not adequately engaged it with the Gospel. We have not kept up with population growth and in reality have been in decline for many years. We cannot minimize the impact of the decline of the culture around us. I believe these to be signs of the times.

Third, a factor in the numbers also seems to be the fact that a great majority of our churches are in rural, aging, and declining communities in the south. With the urbanization of America, many of our churches that were once vibrant, are struggling to maintain in the areas they are located in. Not sure how much of an impact this has on the statistics, but it has to be considered.

So, what is the answer? We need a spiritual awakening, desperately. We need it in our churches. Ps 85:6 "Will You not revive us again, that Your people may rejoice in You?" We need to honestly assess the situation, see it as it is, and get on our faces before a Holy God and repent for the condition we are in. We need to ask Him to do what only He can do. We need a return not only to the inerrancy of Scripture but to the sufficiency of Scripture for the glory of God.

You note that we have peaked as a denomination. I pray that part of the assessment is wrong and that by the power of God we can see a spiritual awakening in this generation. There have been dark days before and it seems that in the darkest hour, the light of the Gospel can shine the brightest.

In recent years, practicality and SBC have been oxymorons. David, good comments.

Michael, are you acquainted with Andy Anderson's "Church/Sunday School Growth Spiral" approach to reaching a city and growing a church through the ministry of a congregation's Sunday School?

The CGS approach was a somewhat popular--and very successful--one during the late 1980's, as reported then by Dr. Anderson; its basis was "Flake's Formula" and its focus was increased quantity resulting from improved quality. The CGS's positive impact was church-wide, not Sunday School alone. Gains in important areas (e.g., baptisms) which were seen by congregations using the approach at that time ranged from 44% to 300% in those measured areas.

If "dollars earned" had been the objective during those years, I suspect that all of us still would be using the CGS approach (we'd all go borrow as much money as banks would loan us at today's prevailing interest rates knowing that we were going to earn at least 44% on that money borrowed)--but, instead, the objective was precious souls . . . It seems that Baptists need "a way"--and no way of sustaining the reaching of cities and growing of churches better than Anderson's CGS is being promoted today by anyone all of us will listen to, and our decline continues.

Bro. Ed,
Of the 51 or so comments so far only 3 have made light mention of the lack of ethnic in leadership positions in our SBC. You put it as your first concern along with young leaders.

As a minority it continues to amaze me how secular employers are looking for diversity and not only due to government regulations but because they realize the value of people who can identify with different groups at different levels.

Our SBC hardly ever employs a minority for anything other than working with their own kind. Blacks with blacks, Hispanics with Hispanics, etc....

We have the same education as other candidates any many times more experience but are never considered for positions that are reserved for white applicants. Almost never is a minority hired to work outside his/her ethnic group. That is to say nothing of churches. When was the last minority seen working in a white church?

Are we not valuable to the Kingdom to white congregations? Do we have nothing to offer other than to our own.

You are so right in your assessment that is not being heeded. The comments show this. Everything else is mentioned but this continues to be a moot issue in our convention. That is certainly a point that is not being taken into by our SBC denomination. The world around us has changed and gladly envelops the minorities that make up our great nation but the 11 o clock hour on Sunday mornings continues to be the most segregated time in our country. Maybe people prefer it that way and if so will continue to decline in reaching the mission field God has put on our doorsteps.

Gracias!

Minority Report: To be fair, I'm a white boy who grew up with a Cajun pastor. And that was in Mississippi! Our deacons presented him with an honorary "white man" certificate. I was a young child when that happened and thought it was weird. Now that I'm grown I know that it was.

Ed-

If you don't mind, I would like to make a couple of observations about your essay.

1. Although the phrase "denomination in decline" seems to convey a great deal more that just an analysis of the head count, the only foundation laid here for the invocation of that pregnant phrase is an analysis of the head count. Must we equate church health with church size (or network health with network size)? I think Stan Norman's introduction to The Baptist Way is a helpful discussion on this point to move us past such facile equivalencies.

2. I concur that we as Southern Baptists need to gain a new confidence in the gospel. I do not concur that we have "lost" it, so much as that too many of us hide it. Perhaps we ought to spend more time singing that verse about hiding it under a bushel.

3. The problem with the Conservative Resurgence is that it faltered and stopped short. Many state conventions remain largely unchanged by it. The Baptist universities—the vast majority of them—represent everything that the Conservative Resurgence existed to combat. The CR accomplished a great transformation, but it transformed the least significant tier of Southern Baptist life. What remains to accomplish is a reformation of local churches. A theological, doctrinal, and ecclesiological reformation.

4. If I might go all FDR on you, I think it just might be that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. Roosevelt meant by that famous quotation not that the challenges facing the nation were not real, but that fear of the challenges fueled the challenges themselves. Likewise, I cannot help but note historically that, to go by the statistical paradigm, the "healthiest" and most burgeoning times in Southern Baptist life were the days of the Landmark movement's greatest influence. Landmarkism's factual issues to the side for a moment, it bred the kind of confidence in Baptists that drove them out into the community as witnesses. Could it be that our handwringing and angst makes the problem worse?

Ed,
Your comments are spot on!!
The sad thing is by some of the responses it is obvious that some people either honestly don't get it or portray an unbelievable "ostrich mentality" that refuses to face the brutal facts. Those of us "in the trenches" trying to reach the next generation in the 21st century appreciate your prayers for us as we continue to preach the word and proclaim the gospel week in and week out.

I concur with Bart's comments about the CR falling short. Most of our associational and state convention structures are stuck in the 1950's. When I was on the board at Southern Seminary (1993-2003) I asked several times what strategies the seminary had for training associational workers and state convention leaders. The answer was something along the lines...once we train the pastor's correctly it will fall into place. I've served in the Northwest for 30 years. It isn't falling into place out here yet!
Steve

Wow.

So many great comments and insightful questions. I feel a little guilty for bringing Dr. Akin into the blogosphere, but I am honored that he would share his thoughts here.

I wish I could answer all the questions, but I can't right now. I've been in a required staff meeting all day and my daughter is singing her solo tonight!

I will try to return to this thread soon. Feel free to carry on without me. (Like you need that suggestion… grin.)

I do plan to post again about this soon. My next post will address why this is the beginning of a downward trend of membership. (One year is not a trend, but I will share more about why this is a trend soon.)

This next post will require more analysis and it will be a bit technical than my commentary would allow. So, it will be a couple of days… probably Monday. I have to post some things for a couple thousand church planters in Orlando before I quit for the day.

Of course, please remember that this blog post is my commentary. The news report is above. You may disagree with my opinions (as several have done quite graciously). I expect brothers and sisters in Christ will disagree and that is OK as long as we do so in a Christ-like manner. I am glad to say that we only had to edit a couple of comments.

And, let me say that some of the best comments and questions are from people who, to some degree, differ from me.

There will be many "Baghdad Bobsspeaking in the next few days. Encourage them that we need to face facts. However, even if we all agree there is a big problem (and I think most do), there are many other ideas on how to fix the problem. Some I would affirm some I would not, but I know I need to learn from others.

I can't fix the SBC-- only Jesus can. But, I do want to fix it in biblically faithful and ways appropriate to our confession. So, let’s figure out how to do that together.

I also should add that I think this moment is, unfortunately, somewhat symbolic. Membership does not mean what it used to mean. Regardless, this is an event that should shake us-- not because the ACP is great, membership is perfectly counted, and it is always the best measure.

It should shake us because we can all agree we are reaching less people, regardless of how (or if) you count. And my prayer is it will drive us to the cross-- and drive us there together.

Perhaps "keeping the convention together" shouldn't be the focus, but rather a by product of another focus.

I appreciate so much this post and applaud Ed for sharing this report. Since the SBC appears to be so numbers conscious it may take the beginning of a downward trend to get SBCers at large to pay attention.
I just want to share something a staff member at another church told me recently. He was attending one of our national conference centers and heard a leading SBC figure make a statement along these lines, "if our country could be won to Christ by programs and hard work alone, the SBC would have already done the job." This man went on to say that we must rely upon God.
I think we had better be about seeking God's will in these challenging days and not pursue our own plans.

I left Texas at an early age because my parents have been overseas missionaries with the IMB since the 80s. I did hang out with SBC churches in Houston for several years when I was in college, but I've since moved on to another church, and I am frustrated by how much of an old dog the SBC can be culturally. I work for a huge global firm that embraces change much more easily than the SBC tends to. God doesn't call us to get set in our ways, but rather Paul exhorts us to figure out how to be all things to all people, and we should look for where the Spirit is leading us, not where we're comfortable to stay. Read the book Heroic Leadership to see how the SBC could be different!

When control/authority issues are glossed by real doctrinal issues it leaves a deeply unhealthy root in the makeup of a denomination.

It seems that the chickens have come home to roost.

Many young leaders have looked at leadership that clearly can not discern between where their own sinful need for control ends and real doctrinal faithfulness begins and they simply walked away.

A course in the wisdom of the Church Fathers would help the SBC put their theology in context.

You should start with Augustine's penetrating insights into the the "dominating" impulse of humans beings--it's sinful even if the issue you are trying to protect is orthodoxy.

Considering the current nitpicking in the SBC over a range of issues that seem to escalate more and more the argument could be made that some dark motivations have come to light in your leaders.

Orthodoxy is great. It is critical.

But the methods of the CR were sinful and it needs to be owned. Additionally, the bad fruit of the CR must be acknowledged. You are turning and tearing each other.

The sad thing is that such repentance is unlikely.

It's not surprising though. I believe it was Tony Campolo who spoke before the Annual Meeting and said it didn't matter if the SBC figured out its position on the Bible because nobody was going to obey it anyway.

Whatever you can say about his views, it's clear that he was right.

David Phillips,

That's gold, brother. Pure gold.

Ed,

It had to be uncomfortable writing this...making it public. Thanks for your courage, my friend. I'm also thankful that you, of all people, will be looking for and proposing positive steps forward. May we have ears to hear.

What a tremendous conversation that is taking place in this blog.

Dr. Stetzer, thank you for being willing post honest thoughts and responses to recent research. We have an amazing opportunity and obligation to continue to move forward with the resources which God has blessed us with so plentifully. As a convention we might continue to shrink steadily for several more years and then more suddenly as we encounter the vacuum of leadership created by a disenfranchised younger generation that is walking away from the Southern Baptist Convention.

Our continued steps into an increasingly post-Christian culture require us to be prepared to shift methodological and structural systems so we can meet the needs of those outside of our churches. Jesus' passion is for the lost in our communities and world; we must be ready to collaborate to take in a great harvest. Ministry in this century must look different from the church of last century for we are facing a markedly different spiritual crisis. No longer is the centralizing locale in our communities the church.

I hope your thoughts and wisdom echo in the hearts and minds of our people and leadership so we can see the Great Commission continuing to be accomplished amongst our churches.

Ed,

I prefer "Comical Ali"—"Bob" is such a bland name. Or maybe "Baghdad Bart"? Do we get our own deck of cards? Can I be the Joker?

:-)

Ed,

Thanks for writing what is self-evident to so many of us who have watched literally dozens of our godliest friends walk away from a denomination they believe is myopic at best and irrelevant at worst. Let's pray that we will move forward for the sake of the gospel and the pursuit of the Great Commission rather than resting on the laurels of past victories, whether real or perceived.

NAF

Thanks so much for providing the data and doing the hard work.

Two questions:

1. What impact will this have on missions in the next 3-5 years for Baptists?

2. Is it time to introduce "outcomes based ministry" to the local church and teach it at various levels?

David,
I'm not familiar with that. I'm not a church insider, not a staff member. I read Ed's blog because he has a Dewalt cordless drill, and because he called Black and Decker "girly" from the pulpit.

-Michael

Ed,

I'm one of those that was born into a SBC family as you mentioned in your commentary. My wife and I married in 1992 and shortly thereafter left the Baptist Church that we grew up in and began attending a Non-Denominational church. Our primary reasoning as you mentioned as well was that we simply began to feel very little connection with our local church anymore. Further we felt that there was little if any effort to try to increase the relevance of that local church to our generation. Your assessment is dead on. My wife and my family continue to attend a Non-Denominational Church but also still have a place in our heart for the Baptist Church and what we believe it has the potential to be. At present the church where my wife and I married has continually dwindled in membership and the youngest attendee is now 13 years old. This is not a church way out in the sticks either, we're talking a suburb of Metro Atlanta. Its painful to see things like that happen. Thanks for your commentary and calling it like you see it.

Very sobering. May God humble us and make us dependent once again upon Him - not our budgets and our buildings and programs and our personalities - for carrying the Gospel to the ends of the earth.

Ed,

Welcome to the world that I left after San Antonio. Those that are blindly loyal to the SBC come along to nitpick your every word or thought in order to distract or frustrate you into giving up when a word of caution is given. Never mind that the word might actually help the SBC in the long run. Well it succeeded with me. I am one who has decided if they want to blindly ride the ship over the falls and will fight anyone that says that we are hearing the sound of rushing water, then they can do it without me.

We will still give to the SBC, but we are focusing much more on what we can do ourselves and what we can do with those who do not desire fight for control over the teat of CP milk.

But since you are busy, and since Tim, Selah & Malcolm have levied such a list, I'll give a few thoughts, just for old times' sake.

Tim, I agree that this may well be partially a result of churches cleaning their roles. We dropped 1,400 off of ours two years ago. However, the trend goes back before we began to address this in Greensboro, and you can't ignore that, whatever else might have occurred to lose members, this can not be the sole cause. Further, if it were widespread, it would be much more severe and would have caused much more of an impact, but our churches, by and large, are content to continue to misrepresent themselves to the world and thus our convention, made up of these churches, is content to do the same.

SelahV, I love my church, too. In fact, it is the most loving church I have known as a staff member. Though we are not perfect, I love us, but it is not the SBC that has made us that way, nor can the SBC sustain that in us. It is not the SBC in a church that elicits love, but God in the church.

Malcolm,

The first point is my favorite. If we are in the position that the Spirit has chosen not to use us then we have a far worse problem than a misshapen resurgence.

Alvin has answered best, but I will add: me. I suppose that is a comfort to many and perhaps to you. That it may be a comfort to you and certainly is to some of your friends and co-workers is precisely the point Ed made. Diversity is healthy, and if you accept that fact in reference to the lack of racial leadership - which you affirm by your silence on the subject and that is well since it is clearly undeniable - then it must also be true for generational leadership. And yes, many of my peers are leading their churches away from the SBC and the involvement of my church with the SBC is diminishing rapidly.

As for a loss of focus on the Gospel, this little infighting in which we are engaged proves that we are more concerned with working against each other for control of the message than with each other to best proclaim the message. Which is why I walked away from it last year and am in the process of walking away in greater steps every day. I want to focus on the Gospel, therefore, I won't be back to bandy words after this post. Whomever needs to poke at this comment can do so without fear of reprisal by me. I've got actual Gospel enterprises to which I must attend this weekend.

As for theology being "in order"... You're just picking nits here. To say that it is out of order is to merely say that it is not where it should be, and you know that quite well. This is your best example of gamesmanship.

No, it's not. The insinuated claim that we are just acting on what the denomination has always held is your best example. This is a ridiculous assertion given all that has happened over the last two years at the IMB. It is well documented that many people disagree vehemently with the parameters now in place and that our history, as all histories, is fed by multiple streams. Landmarkism is only one of them.

Frankly, this last point does the most to discredit everything you've written in the eyes of those who seek to "right the ship." In this you say that the ship is what it should be. For the rest of us, we say that you are not credible and with you there can be no real dialog so we ignore your thoughts. Or, we decide that since you want so badly to play the game, we let you have it and walk away...

Proving everything that Ed has said.

Good day all.

Ed,

Thank you for your research and your honest analysis of it.

In Ps. 133:1-2a, David wrote "How good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell toegether in unity. It is like the precious ointment upon the head..."

The oil referenced and used to illustrate unity was fragrant (Get the recipe in Ex. 30:22-25).

Unity is fragrant and appealing. Disunity stinks and is repulsive.

May we all seek God's will as we travel to the SBC Annual Meeting. My we seek unity on the issues that really matter.

Thanks for the presentations and openhandedness with your resources. I will be referring back here often, and blogrolling it to friends as well.

Great work Ed...regret not getting to say Hi in Orlando.

"Building Bridges" from Dockery and George is excellent... Every Southern Baptist needs to read it (more than once)

Question: Doesn't this denomination basically exist for the purpose of doing mission? Isn't that what the CP is about? Going with the never changing gospel to ever changing cultures; planting churches here and throughout the world? Church planters look for partners; partners to help them complete what God has called them to do.

The SBC is simply at a place where if you want to partner to do mission, the peramaters you have to fit in are pretty narrow. In my opinion, this needs to change and we need more men in positions of influence to speak up and say so.

American society is changing rapidly and I think a great part of the church's decline is not recognizing how she must adjust. After all... it is not just the SBC but all Christian denominations that are declining. There is nothing wrong with the SBC that the Lord cannot fix. If the churches will preach Christ and his gospel there is nothing that can stop them.

dude, first things first. Thanks for calling me that Thursday morning in 2004. Life has been a gas since. Thanks also for raising the bar last week at Expo. You're the Baptist Bono, and we should all be proud of how God is using you.

As for this post and the e-book that has followed: my friend, could you ever have guessed? This is making me think two big thoughts. Perhaps others will find them helpful.
1. While some have tried to disprove Gladwell's "Tipping Point" theory, I've been wondering aloud if we (SBC) are about to give it a big fat boost of credibility. What happens when the Builder Generation who faithfully support the Cooperative Program, faithfully attend traditional SBC churches, faithfully vote at the SBC, and whose children and grandchildren are just as faithfully unchurched, die? Tipping point.
2. Is the increasing and painfully obvious exodus and apathy of young talent from the SBC reversable? I really want to hear a well-documented, "Yes." Especially so given my love of employment at a Southern Baptist young leader training center.

Maybe a third, and this one just a statement: Repent.
Stay the course Ed. Your words help.

I am back from Springfield, MO and my meeting with the Assemblies of God leadership. It was a very long day (got back at 2a.m.), but a good day.

Now that I am up and awake, I looked through the comments again and edited a few of them.

This has been a good discussion among people who (almost unanimously) see a problem and may have different solutions. That's OK. But, let's not be careful about how we speak of others here.

More soon on the research (probably Monday).

Hummm....was my first reaction, not that this was earthshattering; but because of the prophetic boldness to call out some of the fundamental issues from which the decline arises.

I come from an SBC affiliated family for several generations and was born as a PK to an SBC pastor; however, about a decade ago I came to the conclusion that there were other networks in which I could invest time, energy and effort more productively than within the context of the SBC.

Much of this was from the stirring of a strong missional/gospel longing that was not being addressed, nurtured, nor appeared to be a priority (beyond lip service) from within the SBC network at that time -- as most of the "leadership" energy was more focused on other areas.

So...I left...and now I am not sure I would even want to come back.

Tim:
According to SBC.net we have averaged 384k baptisms since the 1950s. Simply google the population growth in the US from then and till now and you can only see how badly it is. No doubt (Rainer has given some research on this) without a Conservative Resurgence things would have been much worse. But they could also be much better.
Of course I would not affirm someone who stops baptizing by immersion. I would also stop churches (and I have seen this several times) who baptize for rededication. I am pretty confident that my fundamental beliefs on issues that matter most have not changed one degree since my early years in ministry. But I can say my concern over our inability to live the faith outside our buildings is deep.
I actually believe we need to re-evangelize America from the perspective of missionaries living in a lost nation, not from the Christian subculture. What if we all lived as if we were missionaries in a foreign field? Because we are.

Roger Smith,

You are not alone. I am now 48 (still a young pastor) and continue to struggle with the things you speak of. Traditionalism is killing the local church. The generation coming up does not want to do church like grandma. I have been through one church split over reaching people for Christ (Christ won a great victory in many lives through this ugly venture) and walked away prior to a second one, as the Lord led I believe.

I am now serving a much smaller church with much less resources but the same issues as the larger ones. Too many members refuse to do whatever it takes to reach our world for Christ. Most don't even want to be discipled. Apathy is rampant.

If God would call me to the foreign field, I would follow, Squatty potties have to be better than Apathetic churches.

Venting done, thanks for allowing the time.

"...real revolutions don't involve an orderly transition from point A to point B. Rather, they go from A through a long period of chaos and only then reach B. In that chaotic period, the old systems get broken down long before new ones become stable." Clay Shirky in "Here Comes Everybody: The Power of Organizing without Organizations".

We are in the chaos portion of that revolution in all matters related to the ekklesia.

Ed,

Thank you for leading the dialogue about what must change in the SBC. I am curious to know what percentage of churches actually filed an ACP? I also believe that a big part of the problem is that the emerging generation of younger leaders in our denomination are tired and weary of the politics and don't want to expend the energy necessary to turn our denomination back toward a missional focus. Therefore, many are leaving the denomination.

Ed,

Thank you so much for your honest and hard words. I'd like address a few of things you posted as well as others.

I was born and saved in a SBC church. My parents were strategic lay leaders. My husband is an MK,PK and his Dad now works for a state Baptist Convention. We left the SBC two years ago. Why?

1. After being faithful and serving members of many SBC churches (the many because my husband was in the Air Force and we moved around the country), we got tired of every church being primarily internally focused. It was more about people trying to become big fish in a small pond than reaching the lost for Christ.

2. When we were young (under 25) the unspoken rule was you had to be in your thirties to have any leadership position. Now, thanks to people in my parents' generation, it's 50. We got tired of waiting and only training for positions that never opened up.

3. Our current state convention is run the same way as above. Most of the leadership is old enough to be my father and some my grandfather and "young" means under 55. This is having an impact on church planting as well as what churches are hiring for staff.

4. While we are conservative in doctrine, we and others in our area are concerned with what appears to be a shift towards fundamentalism especially in our current seminaries. We are in our late 30's and started at Golden Gate BTS in Denver and were so discouraged that we transferred to Denver Seminary. This is reflected in the churches and drives unchurched folks away.

5. We see a need, especially in mission areas such as the West, for bi-vocational ministers. However, in practice and reality this concept is not readily supported or promoted.

It was with great sadness we made our decision and in the last two years partnered with a denomination that has church multiplication in its DNA and have supported us and several ex-SBC folks in starting a church plant. Our parents, while also saddened see the same things and support us in our decision. I wish we could stay and fight but after 10 years of fighting things in this state we were tired and wanted to focus on the Great Commission instead.

God Bless your work!

P.S. We are still "official" members of an SBC church even though we haven't attended since 2005.

Ed,

Your observations and personal experiences as a Southern Baptist have qualified you to provide reasonable interpretations of the data in question. Some might disagree with your conclusions but fair minded people will recognize that they are based on far more than assumptions. Glad you're in the boat.

Dear Mr. Stetzer,
Thanks for your words! I would agree that our fighting over tiny issues has limited and constricted us, not just in where we spend our efforts, but also in how young people in our churches (like myself) react to us at all. I know I have wanted to give up on Baptists numerous times! For some reason, I just can't leave. But I watch every semester as my peers DO leave. We are fed up with "who's right-er than who" arguments, and most of my peers won't stick around long enough to see who really is "right-est." Not only is that an issue for us, but often when we attempt to take a leadership role we are told to have a seat in the back until we're older or seminary-educated. Often it doesn't matter that we feel like God has given us a task to accomplish. We are usually grouped in with youth or children's ministry. Finally (and this will be my last comment), when we do finally get the chance to lead something, more often than not we are criticized for doing it in a newer, more relevant way. We are told that we are ignorant in the best situations, heretical in the worst. It doesn't really matter that "the way things have always been done" isn't working any more -- and hasn't been working for ten or twenty years. Because of these reactions, my peers are leaving -- or never came in the first place. We are desperately seeking churches who are real in their relationships, honest in their struggles, open to understanding, and willing to try new things -- even if they fail! We are looking for churches where they know we are his disciples by our love for each other, and not just the "each other" in the building on Sunday. We are looking for churches that are willing to love -- without cost -- anyone, everyone. Thanks again for the post. I'm glad I caught it (I linked in from a collegiate newsletter).

Sincerely,
John

Church membership is a bloated inaccurate statistic and pretty much not indicative of either real growth or decline, nor either health or illness. The better statistic is average worship attendance. The average worship attendance is 6.1 million which means that almost 10 million on any Sunday are absent from worship. In 1980 this number was 7 million. The SBC has been in a slow declilne along with all American mainline denominations for over twenty years and you guys are just now upset because over the past five years pastors have decided to quit lying.

Your words ring so true: "Satan has used our incessant bickering over non-essentials to promote his last great mission on earth—to keep lost people lost."

I am pretty small potatoes. Lots of great talk going on here. Really ENCOURAGING & stirring.

1) The talk finally seems centered on how to take the Gospel to others; not politics, not the same social issues while there are plenty of other viable issues (that need attention, but in a missional way)

2) There seems to be a real trend from what I can tell of a true "hot" or "cold" environment we all live in. In the business of today people who do not really care about Jesus have other "important" stuff to do. The days of the lost coming to as Alvin Reid said of "attractional evangelism" is long gone and thus as he said an incarnation missional approach is needed, but in a transferrable way to our students and membership. Why would a lost person come to church unless they are really searching for something? (which doesn't happen often) The lost we have don't realize they are lost. (You can't follow Jesus without following Jesus - a paraphrase of Bonhoeffer)

3) Many pastors of all roles have allowed themselves to live in a rut of "playing church." We get so into the life and programs of the church that we forget about living all out for the Gospel. McManus wrote a book titled "Unstoppable Force: Daring to become the Church God had in mind." If others are similar we have become professionals and have allowed our dreams(or ideals) to fade. Maybe someone said they were idealistic or we just gave up.

4) Perhaps we can all stop focusing on doing this or doing that and simply become the person (not pastor) that God intended and maybe if we individualize it that will help too!

--Small Potatoes

I applaud your honesty, Ed, and respect you for your hard examination of the SBC.

It makes me sad to see the commenters who tried to nitpick and discount your information; rather than face the truth they want to argue it away.

We miss what God is doing when we stop being teachable...and in my experience, that has been a huge problem in the SBC.

I was a student at Southwestern when the resurgence/takeover hit there. It was a horrible experience. I quit. (now, years later, I am finishing my MDiv at a non-SBC baptist seminary).

I am a pastor who feels no connection with the SBC or most of it's leaders. Most of what I hear and read is so far out of touch with me and the people in my church and community.

While we love and preserve historical Baptist distinctives, we have no relationship with the SBC.

you are one of the few SBC leaders, Ed, that I feel like I could have a conversation with. Most of the SBC men I read (and sadly, these days it's only men) would not be willing to work with me over minor theological differences--I don't get that impression from you.

Keep it up!

My Dearest Brother in Christ:

As a lay person and father who has two sons preparing for ministry, I am so glad that you have posted what has been so obvious for so many years. I am concerned for my sons and how they will work within the SBC if they stay in the current method of operation as we now know it.

If I may take some liberty and speak very candidly, our problems within the SBC are that we major in the minors, we rely on the good old boys network, we stress numbers more than activity(forgetting about and true regeneration), and we focus on programs that bring numbers rather than spiritual growth.

We become fixed on methodology and what brings success (success being numbers) and we parade around the "mega church" pastors as if those churches are the shinning light of example to follow. In reality, I believe that in some cases, a mega church can be the kiss of death. We get excited about Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven Life, yet there has been no measurement as to what "programs" like these produce in the way of regenerated disciples.

We watch the blogs and post skewing Calvinism as it if it is a horrific position to have convictions of election; or how one was baptized when they were younger, to arguing about alcohol, private prayer language, or whether or not a church should have Elders.
How silly and insignificant the SBC is becoming.

I am saddened when it appears to me that we are about numbers, tradition, new ways to preach God's Word (to make it more relevant, and focused, all at the expense of walking away or shunning what is critical; we have lost the value and skill of preaching the Word of God in an expository manner, claiming that it is too dry, boring, or irrelevant in today's world. We preach without the exposition of the Word of God but opt instead for fluff, fanfare, or watering down.

Paul told Timothy to preach the word, in season and out of season. Paul did not need to use new concepts, ideas, or gimmicks for the lost to be reached. He spoke only the Word of God and allowed the Holy Spirit to manifest Himself in those called.

Can you imagine today that had it been left up to us using the tricks, gimmicks and tools we now see within our own denomination, to grow the church back in Paul's day; where we would be or would not be, if left to us. We have already demonstrated how well we can botch things up.

Brother, your words are loud and clear yet tragically will fall on many deaf ears or uncaring hearts.

Mark Borofsky

Michael:

In case you return to this thread:

As the Church/Sunday School Growth Spiral model proved extremely effective when implemented by churches of various sizes (small, medium, large) in diverse locations (cities and rural) and of differing ages (new and old), I am very sure that hardware and/or tool brand preferences also can be overcome by the Spiral model's use! I highly recommend it--and Craftsman tools!!

I am not a Southern Baptist nor have I ever been one. I am a Christian and a Conservative Quaker.

Perhaps the SBC leadership needs to talk with folks who are not Southern Baptist to find out what the rest of the world (including other Christians) really think about them. It is sad that many SB churches have married nationalism and sold their soul to a particular political party. All the while, there is an incredible spirit of arrogance among SB's I come in contact with.

My advice is to return to the teachings of Jesus. Read and live the beatitudes. Forget political power (it didn't work for the folks in Jesus day either).

I do want to see the SBC prosper. But numbers are not always an indicator as to faithfulness. If we keep our eyes on Jesus and live humbly before God and others, we will do well.

Just my 2 cents.

I realize this post has been commented upon quite a bit but I felt compelled to add something to the discussion.

For many years one could go to a Southern Baptist church anywhere in the country and have a very similar experience. You knew going in you would get 3 or 4 hymns, a 3 point sermon with a poem, an offering and invitation. All of these would look VERY similar as would the buildings in which the services happened. In effect we had learned to franchise the Southern Baptist worship experience. When this strategy was employed it was the right thing to do because of the homogeneous nature of our Christian culture. Times have radically changed and so must we.

I sincerely hope and pray our leadership will have the faith to stand up and call our convention to real, practical change resulting in new models of ministry that might reach a post-Christian nation. Unless our leaders move to challenge old, traditional models and affirm new ideas we will become the irrelevant group we fear we are already becoming. Traditional models still work in some places but new models are needed to reach those it never will. Speaking German when the world around you speaks English is not an option. Speaking the Gospel in a language the world around us speaks is not just vital but absolutely neccessary. This process of change is just as vital to the future ministry of Souther Baptists as language study is to our missionaries going overseas.

I pray for change,

James Heffington