Good words Ed. Sane, Christian words. I agree with your assessment and continue to pray and work for the change that we need.

Ed, I never comment on blogs but in this instance I will make an exception. I could not agree with your assessment more! I go to bed thinking about this every night and wake up the same.We are in serious trouble. Our denomination is at a crisis moment and we will either repent, seek the forgiveness and mercy of God and perhaps experience a true and geniune revival from our Lord, or we will continue our present course and simply fade away with the Lord Jesus justly removing His hand of blessing. May God show us His mercy, break our hearts, and give us a love for Jesus and the lost that consumes us with a holy passion.

Brother Ed,

Thank you for the insightful words which remind us of the coming tragedy. May the Lord do whatever it takes to wake us up and revive our hearts to His will, work and way.

Thanks Danny for your comments as well.

Wow! I mean completely wow! You have hit so many nails on the head. We need to focus as a denomination solely on Christ and on reaching the lost; not the other stuff. The "Conservative Resurgence" did good with its stressing the inerrancy of scripture. But, like you said, if we aren't reaching others, why did we bother? And, unfortunately, there seems to be a movement in at least certain parts of the denomination towards uniformity - "If you ain't like us, you're missing the boat somewhere!" But the only way to get younger leaders and minority leaders is to allow people that are very different from the stereotype to be leaders while they are being themselves.
And you made such a good point when you said that people don't want to hear what we have to say if we do not even speak kindly to each other.

Two things popped into my head when I read this. The first was a memory of a prominent Bible Teacher in the 1980's making the statement that if revival and spiritual awakening were going to come to America it would be through the SBC. He was not a Southern Baptist.
The second thing I remembered was a seminary prof at SWBTS in the late 80's who said these simple words to me "What we are doing isn't working."
Somehow I dreamed we would go out and change that. I graduated from Seminary almost 20 years ago. Today I am filled with repentance that I feel I have never stayed the course I should have done more, or run better.

humbling

This is what we need to be tallking about. The little booklet "Building Bridges" provides an excellent resource both for assessment of where we have been as a denomination, who we are now, and the challenges we must face if we expect to be involved in God's redemptive activity going forward.

Thanks Ed.

Ed, yours are words that should wake us from our slumber. I hope they resonate at Indy and beyond. And you're right, a new plan won't fix this one. May God humble us and break us to mold us into His image.

It seems like saying we've "peaked" is assuming a little too much: it moves from observing the data and into predicting the future (ie. this won't be turned around). A peak is the highest point. I'm not ready to say we've gotten there yet. It will take years to know the truth of that statement. But this is certainly alarming and a wake-up call to us pastors.

On the other hand, I would argue that some decline is needed. How many 'missing' members are the result of churches updating their membership roles? Do we have any way of knowing?

Great words. Thanks for being transparent. I was raised SBC and it pains me to hear this. It's been almost a decade since a few people in my home church recognized what this report is confirming. It was easy to see, but hard to change.

Maybe something really radical should be done, like canning all of the conventions and create church planting & coaching/resource organizations only - then have churches tithe back to them.

Has there ever been an SBC study to find out the common factors among the fastest growing (based on baptisms) SBC churches? I guarantee almost all of them won't look like or act like most SBC churches.

Andy Stanley says complex organizations are dumb and the SBC is pretty complex. Fortunately there are great leaders in the SBC all throughout, not just Ed & Thom Rainer types so hopefully things will change.

Thank you for this blog post. We, as Southern Baptists, do need to re-focus. So many times, the world knows exactly what we are against (and the list is long) as opposed to what we are for: New Life in Jesus Christ.

Mr. Stetzer,

I just read through your blog felt it necessary to share my experiences as a Southern Baptist minister. I have been pastoring full time now for almost 5 years. I am currently working on my D.Min through Midwestern. I received my M.Div. from Southwestern and my BA from Wayland Baptist University in TX. I share that simply to show that I have been well aquainted with the Baptist way of life. Since I began preaching I have heard repeatedly how great it is to have someone young preaching the Word of God. I began preaching at 18. I am now 30. You wrote that the SBC is in decline for a number of reasons. First, our evanglism is non-existent, our motto on unity seems to be "divide and spread..." but worst, our churches, as a whole, are so caught up in the growth and functioning of the 50's that they are choking themselves out.

I am currently serving in my second church as pastor, but every Southern Baptist Church I have ever been a part of is literally choking to death on traditionalism. The church becomes more and more irrelevant every year and those who are committed to the 1950's see the reduced numbers as proof that they are right. (How's that for twisted logic?) I have seen it multiple times already in my ministry life as youth minister and as a pastor. The traditionalists will ride a church clear down to the ground and feel completely justified in doing so. This, however, is not the real tragedy of the situation.

As these churches decline, a certain kind of panic sets in that new members are now necessary so they will hire a new "YOUNG" pastor to reach a younger generation so the church can move forward into the future. They stand up and affirm how important the next generation of believers are to the church, pat the new pastor on the back and tell him to "go get 'em". This is where a very unpleasant reality for the young pastor introduces itself. He alone has the responsibility to convince unbelievers not only to come to church, but to accept and embrace an outdated, ineffective, self-centered way of doing things in the church. Now, the pastor is in an impossible place. He wants the reach people, but he doesn't want to lose his job doing his job either, so NOTHING HAPPENS.

Traditionalism in Southern Baptist Life must die. If it means that the SBC declines for a few years while these churches that are completely irrelevant finally die off, so be it. See, the answer is not simply getting younger leaders into churches. There are plenty of young leaders out there willing to take the reigns and do their best, mistakes and all. The problem is many Southern Baptist Churches will not let them. After only 5 years of pastoring I am already so gunshy about trying ANYTHING new that I feel at times I have given up. This is not complaining, it is simply the truth. Personally, I am probably one opportunity away from leaving the SBC ministry for something more modern and relevant. But, for now, God has kept me in the SBC.

I do not claim to have significant answers for church growth, but I have already learned a great deal about church death. Most of our Southern Baptist Churches must change or die. Unfortunately, most would rather die, which is exactly what we are seeing today. Young leaders can't change this mindset and we are already tired of trying. This is why so many young leaders are leaving the SBC and starting Non-Denom churches. They simply cannot stand being forcefed traditions that are choking the life out of everyone they touch.

Roger
--
And while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

Ed,

I can only say "amen". Well, I can also say I'm equally concerned over the presence ... or absence ... of the Holy Spirit in the mix. I cannot believe He's pleased with what you referenced as an "inflated statistic". Personally, I think we're seeing the de-Spiritualization that started via a political solution to Spiritual problems, and now is so evident in the public scorning of what the Bible describes as a Spiritual gift whose choice of bestowal is that of the Holy Spirit.

And tons of other things not directly related thereto.

Brother Ed,

Been a while since I last dialogged with you. :) Certainly do miss sitting on that couch in the lower level of the building at Ridgecrest along with 5 other pastors. Seems like it was just yesterday.

As usual I have a couple of questions. As you know I will question stats, and I have Dr. Yarnell to verify my math. :)

Seriously, If we are concerned that the numbers are falling in the SBC overall, why such a big push on small churches? Certainly we would like to understand that as small churches they are new church plants, but that does not seem to be what I am hearing when it comes to the cry for small churches. Second, would you say that your research is based solely on the membership totals that were dropping? IOW, did anyone look to see if there was a parallel increase in other denomination or non-denominational churches before making the claim that the SBC is in decline? For sometime now I have been hearing 'regenerate church members' and how each church should be removing the 'dead wood' from their roles. Could this be a result of churches taking serious that call? If it is, then would you still consider the SBC to be in decline? If this 'decline' is from churches taking seriously regenerate church membership, then we must admit that there really is no decline. How can you be going backwards if you remove something that was not causing you forward momentum?

Just some thoughts that have went through my brain as I read your post. Of course after spending some time together you know that most of these thoughts get depressed for lack of friends and commit suicide. :) But, nevertheless they are still alive and floating so I thought I would allow them to float into this river.

Blessings,
Tim

PS, You know you have posted something of significance when Dr. Akin comes out of the background and comments. Great subject matter.

Wow...That just happened. Unbeliveably poignant posting.

The most basic problem is this: The SBC needs leaders who love people. The SBC needs leaders who are likeable. We do these two things, it solves nearly every problem we have.

We have so many leaders, pastors, etc, who just aren't likeable.

Read the following books by Tim Sanders:
The Likeability Factor
Love is the Killer App

Ed, Why don't you tell us what you really think? :)

Good words my friend. Very good words indeed. Thank you for revealing and discussing a very serious issue--perhaps the only issue currently on the SBC table worthy of serious discussion!

Roger,

A kindred spirit, brother. A hearty amen to everything you just said.

what needs to be shouted from the rooftops is that many of our people, maybe even the majority, aren't teachable. They are members, but they aren't disciples.

By no means am I wanting to discourage any brother or sister who reads this, but my view is that this trend continues until membership in our churches actually means anything remotely close to the Biblical teachings. I suspect that could be another decade or more, and that we will also be tempted to go liberal or emergent in order to reverse the tide and refill our buildings. Let us be wise, beloved.

ed,
do we know what, if any, age range in which baptisms increased?

I really am curious.

kbh

Ed, thanks! Wow, this is so insightful, good stuff!

I didn't know there was an official decline.

I wonder if the decline in membership is partly from SBCers moving to non-denom churches (lots of hot new church plants seem to be non-denom and targeting young evangelicals) - which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I feel like the time of denominations is passing, but "church networks" seem to be the thing.

Great post Ed.

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment and would add that what we are seeing in baptism and attendance is only the proverbial tip of the ice-burg. The real pain will come when annual contributions start sliding down the bell curve. As the builder generation fades, and the busters drift, there will be a HUGE decline in annual giving IMHO.

This year, I have two young couples in my church wanting on the mission field who have been disqualified by baptism policy on the IMB board. As a trustee I have no answers for them (I will not demean their Biblical baptism). My observation is that it is becoming increasingly difficult for a younger generation to reconcile what many perceive as narrowing positions outside of the gospel. We are marginalizing churches at the exact wrong time. Our young congregations and young pastors will just find other avenues as this continues. It is only my opinion, but I believe the decline will be dramatic and painful. I am already seeing the signs- and you post only confirms it.

Ed, I am a Lumbee Indian. I graduated from Southeasern in 2000. The sbc convention has never really had a personality to reach out to more ethnic people. We have a good old boy network that represents the God Fathers of the convention. We are known more for what we fight against than what we fight for. When will the red neck fundamentialism ever die.

This is not surprising at all. George Barna has been reporting similar trends for more than two decades. The reality is that all institutional expressions of church are in decline. Some folks are leaving SBC churches but many are abandoning all forms of institutional church.

This is a huge transition that cannot be contained by programmatic changes, doctrinal positions, worship styles, etc. This is a complete re-formation of the church. Very few in the SBC realize how out of touch they are with the reality of this change. In a few short decades there may not be an SBC, state conventions and maybe no institutional expressions of the local church either. This is just the tip of a huge iceberg.

When individual Believers forget their "First Love", the church spirals out of control and loses momentum. The SBC is me. I think the negativity and not dwelling on that which is positive is the main problem. Can you do a research on what people love about the SBC and the blessings afforded them through her? Can you do a research on why we love to go to church on Sundays, Mondays, Tuesdays--etc.? Can you do a research on how the Lord is manifesting Himself within the current SBC churches that are growing in leaps and bounds? Can we get a witness? selahV

Wow, you go bro! I'm Southern Baptist blooded to the point of embarassment, actually denial. I've prayed the sinner's prayer with young adults and not felt comfortable at all in bringing them into the church. I trembled as one reported to me what went on around them in a committee meeting. There is no wonder young adults have turned their backs on such atrocities done in the name of God--the church. If I have a missional heart doing the work of evangelism, just where can I realistically ask them to link with believers who actually believe? Yes, I'm broken. Yes, I'm ashamed. And yes, I'm near ready to dust my feet. God help us to return to our first love!!

Ed,
I wonder if more Southern Baptist leaders will heed your words now that you've got even more clear data to back up what you've been saying for some time now.

I think many younger leaders have decided not to let the SBC hold them back, and have moved on. I guess I consider myself indifferent toward most of it.

I nothing the Southern Baptist Convention.

I agree with your comments. I left th Southern Baptist denomination and went to the Assembly of God only because I felt I was shut out after the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. I am about to finish my degree with Lee University and am wanting to go back to a baptist church but I feel this will not happened due to my stand on spiritual gifts. I do constantly pray for the SBC.

Great information! Thank you Ed Stetzer and LifeWay for tackling these issues. For me Roger Smith’s comments (above) stated it perfectly. I really believe the “traditional” generation is in its final cycle and without malice I have to say it seems to be fading away. I have not Pastored a Church, but I have been a Minister of Students, Church Planter and pulpit supply preacher and I could have written the same comment as Roger because I have lived through the exact same thing (in two states – LA & MS).

Sobering,

Could it be that the CR left a trail of broken people? What I see is move to exclude people from the SBC rather than work together for the sake of the Gospel.

If you tell creative minds "NO" long enough they will find somewhere else to go.

My apologies for not responding to all the comments.

I am speaking at a church planting conference all day today. I will try to respond later today.

Ed

Ed - you really have hit the nail on the head.

Roger -

Amen, brother. I don't men this funny, but, "I feel your pain" for it is mine. I love the church I pastor (125 years old and growing more innovative), but pastored a church that I was embarrased to invite the lost to.

One series of thoughts, however. The church I pastor does "the Lifeway thing" because we were all immersed in it in seminary. I don't mean to step on toes, but the open Sunday school model is one of the problems. We don't have much depth to offer folks if we go "the traditional Sunday morning" route.

If training union were still possible, it would work to race through a book of the Bible in 16, 45 minute sessions, but we are faced with a terrible problem that traditional Sunday school just doesn't face. The problem stems from not facing up to the time-crunch of modern society. Our complicated lives, coupled with the fact that many of our members are Sunday morning only folks, keeps us from developing mature disciples through the open, evangelistic model of Sunday school that most Educational ministers espouse. If Sunday morning is the ONLY time you can still get them to commit to come, we better start offering some different approaches to Sunday Morning education that offer more depth.

I know, Lifeway produces products for a variety of purposes, but the problem lies in Educational Ministers and pastors (like me) who are reluctant to abandon the open class model. Educational approaches need to be vastly improved with the "Sunday morning only" time slot in mind. IMHO.

BTW, I will believe there is true repentance in our denomination when I see strong efforts to reconcile and reunite the SBC and CBF, and competing state conventions. Yes, there are differences, but we need to show the world that the people who believe they will be together in eternity can be together in temporality, too.

Just my humble opinion, but I have great hope for saving a once great denomination. When we rejoice in reaching people for Christ, even if it may be in an emergent, cowboy, contemporary, seeker, social, or traditional model, then we will show signs of healing and faith as a denomination (Romans 14:1-4, 13-15).

Ben Macklin

Thanks, Ed.

I am doing a great deal of historical research on Southern Baptists and the race issue/Civil Rights Movement. As I study, talk with people, and consider my own experiences, I find it impossible to see how we could have been blessed by God as a denomination for some time now. I think that this decline set in long ago and we are just starting to see the clear results. Unless we truly repent and do more than just make statements or draw up strategies, we are in for a slow, but sure death. God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. What is true personally becomes true corporately.

Fortunately, there is grace. If we would just turn to the Lord and make things right with those that we have sinned against, I believe that God would pour out blessing upon us. Isaiah 58 provides a great understanding of this. The problem is, we have so many "leaders" who think that they know which way we should go, and very little of it is biblical.

We do not need more evangelism initiatives. God save us from more plans and programs.

We do not need more meaningless statements.

We do not need more calls for revival and useless introspection.

We need a movement of the Holy Spirit that will cause us to right some pretty severe wrongs in our lives, our churches, and our communities.

We need to dramatically humble ourselves. If we remain in our pride, God says that He will oppose us. It is clear that is what is happening.

SelahV:
Here's the good news...

this illness is treatable.

Dearest Ed,

Thanks for this post. As always, you do provoke thought. However, there are so many assumptions that have gone into your statements, that it is impossible to evaluate them with any depth. Perhaps you would be willing to spell out your thoughts more with detail. For instance, consider these five issues raised in your post:

(1) Why should we assume that the Conservative Resurgence has not led to a Great Commission Resurgence in the hearts of conservative Southern Baptists? Perhaps there is a passion for the Great Commission that is already existing in our churches. Perhaps the churches are busy proclaiming God's Word, but the Spirit in His sovereignty has not yet seen fit to bless us with the numbers we desire to see. Perhaps our focus should be less upon meeting statistical goals and more upon simply being faithful with what responsibilities we have been granted.

(2) Exactly who are these "young leaders" that we are losing? Are they the leaders that God has brought to the fore amongst our churches? If so, have their churches left the SBC? Moreover, may not the elevation of these "young leaders" actually be the very source of the "young vs. old" division that is decried? Moreover, in promoting young leaders, do we not take the risk of downplaying the elders who the churches have chosen to lead them?

(3) Exactly who among our churches has lost their focus upon the gospel? Is the implication that somehow our churches have forsaken the gospel? How do we verify this rather sharp claim, which, if true, indicates that our churches are no longer, in essence, churches? Needless to say, this is perhaps the most troubling issue raised, for without the gospel, we have no hope of salvation.

(4) When did we ever decide that our theology was "in order"? Can any of us really claim to have reached perfection in the development of doctrine, apart from standing complete in our salvation before the heavenly throne? Should we not always be about promoting the truth and defending the faith? Is the theological task ever truly finished this side of the Second Coming?

(5) Exactly what "parameters" have been narrowed in the SBC? Have we not, at our best, been about preserving the faith once for all delivered to the saints? Who, among us, are busy about narrowing parameters of cooperation? Could it be that the parameters have stayed the same but those parameters are no longer appreciated by everyone?

Thanks, my old friend, for raising these important issues. I look forward to our clarifying theology and practice together as Southern Baptists who believe that this is a truly great convention of churches. Let us be the best disciples we can be to the Lord who died on a cross and rose from the dead for us by going, making disciples, baptizing, and teaching all things that Christ has commanded us, even when those things are resisted, even when those very things bring us to frank yet friendly conversations.

In Christ,
Malcolm

From a young SBC church planter who has wrestled with these issues for the past several years, thank you for your boldness in addressing them, Ed.

One word of caution that I will add, particularly for those leaders of my generation and others who are "missionally" minded:

We must be very careful that we do not simply leave the ninety-nine (the institutional church and its transformation-restricting traditions) and then make our focus articulating all the ways that we are different from them. Jesus said that the only acceptable reason to leave the ninety-nine was to "go after the one which is lost." Unfortunately, I fear that many of us, in our desire to see the mistakes of the past and present corrected, have missed this vital point.

Help me understand how this is bad news. If denom numbers are inflated, and if churches practicing discipine and meaningful membership etc. results (often) in smaller numbers, can't this be an expected trend or perhaps even encouraging news in that our numbers are lower but more realistic? Or could it not indicate positive trends, for instance, churches that take baptism more seriously and really screen candidates might have fewer baptisms, but we wouldnt lament that, right? I guess it doesnt necessarily strike me as bad news. I am ready to stand corrected, however.

It's hard for me to add to all that has been said. One thought however. Last week our church hosted a series of meetings (we used to call them revival meetings and people stopped attending, so now we call them Bible conferences). The young man (he's 38 and I'm ancient-51) made a comment that was interesting. (He is a full time evangelist living in the Northwest- scraping by- literally.) He commented that the growth of Southern Baptist's in the 50's and beyond was the result of a few decades of seed-planting. He wondered if we have become too numerically minded to remember what it is to plant and wait...
Just a thought from a small church pastor - waiting desperately for a harvest!

Ed:
You know I am not a huge fan of stats, although my intuition is always better when affirmed by statistical evidence :-). But the evidence you offer only gives further warrant to the reality we must admit--we are in great danger as a convention if we do not see a Great Commission Resurgence. I am not one of those who likes to poo poo on the Conservative Resurgence. Many of us would not even be in the SBC were it not for that. I certainly would not be able to have the joy of teaching so many great young seminarians at SOUTHEASTERN of all places had there not been a radical change. And, I know it is easy just to be critical. There is so much good and I praise God for all He is doing in our Baptist Zion.
But we have to be honest. We are not changing the culture. We are not penetrating the hard core unchurched population. We are hardly reaching our own children. Or are we even doing that? Just a few thoughts:
1. The greatest 5 years of baptisms ever came 1971-75 during the era of the Jesus Movement. We also baptized far more youth in those years than any other (not only in ratio to SBC population but also to the US population). We are pathetic at reaching young people but man we can build our youth buildings. Institutions are not the answer. We would rather be cool when youth need the gospel. We need a movement of evangelism among the youth population.
2. Rainer has noted a survey where something like 53% of pastors had not shared Christ in the previous six months. If you are a pastor and do not preach, or meet with deacons, or visit the sick for six months you are in jeopardy with your people. But our institutional, building-focused church culture allows a pastor to share the gospel hardly ever and still be a fine pastor. Our culture needs a change. A program will not fix that. A movement will.
3. The cities. I do not have the stats before me but we are not reaching the great cities of the US. We have billions of net worth but seem to go after the cities like liberal democrats, throwing a little money here and there with little to show long term. God give us a long term strategy to reach the cities and to be good stewards of our resources for the gospel.
4. Conformity--we tend to follow a path of least resistance, conformity-based approach to leadership, which may explain why there are so few leaders today. We need CONFORMITY in DOCTRINE, and CREATIVITY/FLEXIBILITY in PRACTICE. We are arguing over preferences like middle schoolers while the world is racing toward hell. To paraphrase a friend whom I will not name but whose initials are ES, we are sacrificing our future on the altar of our preferences.
Yes, in 1959 when I was born the SBC churches looked amazingly similar across the nation. That day will never return. Solid, expositional preaching, passionate gospel proclamation, fervent, God honoring worship, and missional living are some things that do not change, but how we apply that may. Interestingly one could argue that we are seeing some of the best in expository preaching today in new churches in the urban setting with men who preach for an hour or more to thousands of young adults hungry for truth. But they may wear (heaven forbid) a collared shirt rather than a tie. I speak at a lot of youth and college events and am convinced I preach much better without a tie haha.
5. Family--we in the SBC pride ourselves in our focus on the family, and we have done so much good overall. But I have been asking for some time these questions of audiences--1. How many of you grew up in a Christian home (about 90%)? 2. How many of you ever remember your family sitting down to talk about reaching your lost neighbors (about THREE percent)? We wonder why our kids grow up in church and abandon the faith. We don't even reach out to our neighbors.
6. I will quit with this, one short of the number of perfection--our evangelism has been institutional and attractional. It must become missional and incarnational. The incarnation is not only theology, it is also strategy! We are amazingly good at attractional evangelism. We can have a Samaritan night and reach the Samaritans. We should continue doing what we do well. Last week I took my class out and we went door to door and saw one come to Christ. But we must add without subtracting. We must add a missional focus, so that when we leave our church buildings and enter restaurants people won't wonder what happened to us when we deny what we just sang at worship by the sorry tip we leave and the sorry attitude we have. We must admit that the true measure of our CHristianity is not the saved people we impress but the lost people we influence.
Okay. I am sorry for being so long. We are on break and I have been thinking too much. I am waking up in the wee hours of the morning with a broken heart. I remember in the early 1980s wondering if I could be a Southern Baptist in 20 years if we could not affirm an inerrant Bible. Thank God for heroes who stood for truth. Now, for my students and others like them, I see a generation wanting someone to say they can stand on that same truth and at the same time be the people God called them to be, even if it does not look just like the Baptist church down the street.
I am not a whiner or complainer by nature. But beloved, we need a change. I speak to so many youth and college students every year. They want to change the world. Let us let them. let us help them.

Malcolm: AMEN!

Malcolm:
Greetings my brother. I pray you are seeing your semester move toward a blessed conclusion this spring.
I am thankful for your thoughtful points. I would like to venture a bit of a response to some in the hopes of fostering further helpful dialogue.
On your first point, I would say that indeed the Conservative Resurgence (CR) has led some to seek a Great Commission Resurgence (GCR), including me. I would say we would not be having this discussion were it not for the CR. However, I think we would be hard pressed to say with confidence we should simply do what we are doing, for I fear if we do we will keep getting what we have been getting. Baptisms have been flatlined for 50 years. Take into consideration population growth and we have been in sustained decline. I would argue that if CP receipts declined the past decade like baptisms we would be on near panic stage, but that is likely a topic for another day. I would simply say that people like me who are convinced we need a GCR get that from the CR. Lutheranism needed the missionary impetus from Pietism a century after her beginnings, and maybe we need the same.
On your second point I can only speak anecdotally, but with some confidence. For several semesters I have asked our students "how many of you came from an SBC church?" The vast majority. Then I ask, "How many of you want to go back and serve a church just like that?" Almost none. These are seminarians, the ones we still have, and they see a serious need for change. Again, this is anecdotal and simplistic, but here is another idea--have someone do a survey of current seminarians to find out who they listen to on podcasts? Might be revealing.
I will cease and desist at this point. I look forward to further dialogue. I am so amazingly grateful that we have seminaries, yes in the plural, that are interested in grappling with these issues. I am actually very excited in the future given the amazing students I get to teach. I just want to teach them well, and the issues we are discussing here are vital!

Dr. Yarnell,

I love you. You must be in a wonderful time of bliss.

Ed, thanks for this word. Sadly, the warning signs have been there for years, but nobody seemed to want to listen. I wish I could have confidence that things will change, but I am afraid it will not.

Dr. Reid,
We've never met, but I've always liked a lot of what you have to say.

Dr. Reid,

You write; Baptisms have been flatlined for 50 years. You are the Prof of Evangelism that I respect and desire to emulate with the passion I see in you. Tell me why you believe the Baptisms are flatlined? 50 years is 1958, but you say that best years for Baptisms is 71-73. Did those years produce a spike?

Also, you said before that; I think we would be hard pressed to say with confidence we should simply do what we are doing... I do not want to answer for Dr. Yarnell, but I do not believe he is advocating that we keep doing what we have been doing. Can you help me understand how we do evangelism and maintain Baptist as that is who we are. I know the Emerging church is doing great things. However, how do we move forward without throwing Baptism by immersion (just one example of Baptist Identity) out of the window?

Blessings,
Tim

You might be interested to know that David Dockery's latest book is due out soon and offers a way forward for the SBC. The book is titled, Southern Baptist Consensus and Renewal (Nashville: B&H Academic, 2008).

Is it possible that the drop in baptisms represents a resurgence in discernment in evangelistic counseling, especially among our little children and teens?

Perhaps the baptism rate is dropping because some are not giving in to the pressure to lower the bar of what true conversion consists of in order to keep up with our denominational goals for baptisms, which has led to 10 million+ SBC members being AWOL.

Maybe we are baptizing fewer unbelievers, wouldn't that be a good thing?
If that is true, maybe we are seeing more people saved, despite the lower baptism numbers?

this maybe crazy talk, its been a long day.

Dr. Yarnell,

Yes, younger leaders are either leaving or are not engaging to begin with. I am 33 years old. I am the youngest person by 10-15 years at nearly every Baptist gathering I go to. They think I'm a youth minister. Where are my peers? Where are the people I went to seminary with? They are not pastoring churches - at least not very many of them.

Yes, we are losing the gospel. I would say that if it takes 47 Southern Baptists to lead 1 person to Christ each year, we have already functionally lost the proclamation of the gospel, at the very least. Whether we believe it or not and on what level is for God to decide, I suppose. But, faith without works is dead and it appears that death is encroaching upon us. By the way, the ratio in my church last year was 13:1 and our leadership is concerned and we are seeking God for a greater increase in evangelism. I only say that to say that we are becoming gripped with an urgency to see people know the Lord. I don't think that it is bragging to say that God's Spirit is moving among us and is producing Biblical fruit.

It seems that we continually want to say "Peace, Peace," when there is no peace. We want to make sure that if we are on the watch then nothing is going wrong, yet white papers galore will be written about the dangers of contextualization amongst other groups. It appears that Southern Baptists have contextualized the gospel to oblivion over the years as we completely adapted to the sins of Southern culture, yet there is little awareness of how that partnership has neutered the power of our witness. We must come out of such an arrangement and call our churches to Biblical faith before it is too late. Or, maybe it already is for many of us.

And yes, it appears that many "churches" that claim to be churches are nothing of the sort. What they are, I don't know, but they do not appear to be biblical churches, even though they have "Baptist" on the sign.

If I may clarify my earlier comment, which was a bit more obscure than I intended:

I fear that many young leaders, especially church planters, have stepped away from "tradition" and mistakenly assumed that this in itself made them "missional." I was one such young church planter. My experience has taught me, however, that the proper order is not "jettison tradition and thus become missional," rather, it is "go after the lost and the Holy Spirit will make it clear what traditions, if any, hinder mission and need to be dropped."

Beyond this, "traditional" does not necessarily mean "not missional." I don't know of a more missional church than Redeemer Presbyterian, and yet I dare say they are far more "traditional" than most any SBC church I know of!

Alvin Reid wrote:I see a generation wanting someone to say they can stand on that same truth and at the same time be the people God called them to be, even if it does not look just like the Baptist church down the street.

After reading this, I simply had to affirm your conviction and honor my mentor and pastor, Dr. Johnny Hunt. If it were not for Dr. Hunt's encouragement, understanding, and allowing me to be who God made me to be, I would not be in church ministry today. Thank God for leaders like you and Dr. Hunt who get this!

Ed-
Thanks for publishing the truth even when some around you are afraid to admit that it is the truth.

Ed,

I just wanted to express my appreciation to you for your willingness and courage to call us to gospel faithfulness. We really need this discussion; more than that, we need to let this be a mirror for us all.

I don't know, kind of reminds me of that picture Marty McFly had in "Back to the Future" where his family slowly disappearing . . .

In the 1940s and 50s, Southern Baptists became institutionalized, we came to believe that the larger body was more important than the local church. So, we looked to the denomination to tell us how to do things and when to do it. By the end of the 1960s every Baptist worship service, every Sunday School class, every Wednesday night service were all alike.

In the 1970's “cutting edge” Baptists bought into the Church Growth movement with all its statistics, studies and public relations models taken from the business world. Instead of focusing on preaching Scripture and teaching doctrine, we relied on worldly models to define church outreach.

In the 1980s the church growth movement morphed into the seeker sensitive service model of church. Soon Baptists were importing charismatic worship into Baptist churches with the claim that we must be relevant to society.

The institutionalizing of Baptist churches set us to be gullible to any kind of movement passed on to us by experts. We became consumed with pragmatic concerns. “Whatever works” became our mantra no matter what damage such programs may inflict on our churches. The concepts that we bought into, Church Growth Movement, the Seeker Sensitive worship, etc. has all lead to decline. It seems obvious that these things made church members self-centered consumers and not Christians. Instead of preaching the Word and relying on the Holy Spirit to call people out of their sin, we figured the Holy Spirit was weak and needed our help. Self-centered consumers do not go out and bear witness to Christ.

The fact is we have been in decline for decades. The FBI could not find half of the Southern Baptist membership. This has been true for the last forty years. We have been hiding behind numbers. So, we baptized more in the past years? How many of those baptized stayed in church? When you scare people into converting or make it so easy that no repentance is required, what should we expect? Which is better, fake converts whom we baptize or lower baptisms?

Pragmatism does not work, an ironic statement. Looking like the world, acting like the world, sounding like the world, does not work. If we are going to look foolish to the world, then let it be because we live as those who have been crucified and let us preach the scandal of the Cross.

Church is not a political action committee, it is not a self help group, it is not entertainment, it is not a place for self actualization. The local church is the people of God. And the people of God are aliens and strangers in a foreign land, we are not of the world. We need to be more like strangers.

I do not have confidence in numbers and in experts who spin them. I do have confidence that if we live holy lives before our living and holy Lord, then we will bear much fruit. But if we are not faithful to the call of Christ, why would he bless us? We do not need our own pragmatically induced “revival.” We have a great need for repentance and the willingness to remain in decline until we have God’s blessing.

I find it very interesting that you draw the correlation between diversity among SBC leadership and the effectiveness of the SBC in a evolving cultural landscape in America.

I think you're right. But I think this particular issue speaks of a more deeper problem. . . .

I think the SBC is in an identity crisis. Historically, culturally and even theologically the SBC has always been a proudly white denomination. Now we are trying to hold on to that familiar island and identity while all around us everything is changing.

This even challenges our political sensibilities - Illegal Immigration and public policy etc. But this is where the separation of our faith and politics are seriously challenged, to say the least.

While we resent immigrants flooding our cities and straining our economic situation . . . Do they still matter to God as people made in His image whom he longs to have a relationship with ?

Awkward stuff.

Most of us don't want to talk about diversity let alone recognize it - I mean lets be honest . . . because for many Churches we so are isolated in our cultural and geo-communal bubbles . . . it's just not on our radar screen . . . .

LEARNING TO BREATHE coming later this year . . . look for it.

Ed,

Raise your voice. You are not being heard - not in San Antonio, not in Nashville, not in many of our denominational HQ's, and evidently in too few seminaries.

The Great Commission is carried out, in a sustained way, by Great Commandment believers--but really not by anyone else. Great Commandment believers result from the activity of the Holy Spirit in yielded Christians' lives--but really not by any other means. So, no reliance