Ed,

I do understand your rationale but must encourage you to have a sleep study if sleep apnea is a possible health issue for you. As one who travels the world with a CPAP machine, I can't begin to tell you the difference it's made to my sleep and that of my dear wife, Imbi. (I no longer snore or stop breathing for extended periods whilst sleeping or attempting to.)

Perhaps we both should come under the care of the Jollyblogger, who's lost 55 lbs and is keeping the weight off off.

Good counsel, Bill.

I will reschedule for sure. Just at a clinic with two staff members.

Ed

I remember years ago being encouraged by similar stories of how Billy Graham followed many of these same principles.

If making sure we do not give a cause to diminish our reputation is important, so too is remember the Grace of Christ. Making ones personal convictions into a "Thou Shalt Not.." list does not fit well with the instructions in Galatians.

Joe, I do not see anything wrong with a "Thou Shalt Not..." list. In fact, I would encourage it if it helps to keeping your from getting into trouble. Remember the Grace of Christ, but Jesus also said that if we love him, we will obey his commands. And I would consider personal convictions fall under that.

A wise man you are.

odd... but I would not consider elevating personal convictions to the level of biblical command as a function of grace. Read the entire letter to the Galatian churches and consider Paul's teaching on the Law vs. Grace.

Having been freed from the Law, why would you want to create a new one?

Joe and Matt, thanks... but let's move on from Galatians (did I just say that?).

These are church policies, not laws. The "thou shalt not" is tonuge-in-cheek.

I have lots of policies at the church... like, pastors shall not sign checks... staff shall not spend over $X without approval... pastors shall not do dumb things... etc., etc.

Ed,
I too had a sleep test prior to some major throat surgery. I was fortunate that there were two staff and at least six other people there that night (in different rooms). Please follow through and get the sleep test - you will be glad you did. I cannot begin to tell you how much better I felt after my problems were corrected. If your options are limited in regard to clinics, perhaps you can take your wife with you. The test only lasts about five hours.

Chris

First of all, if it happens, let me welcome you to the world of the CPAP. Contrary to Bill above, I hate mine!

Second, are these rules, or are they more like guidelines? (arcane "Pirates of the Caribbean" reference)

Third, any pastor who does not practice something very similar to these rules is foolish.

One of my seminary profs once said, "Men, there are many things that will hinder your ministry. There are two that will cost you your ministry: women and money. Don't fool around with either!"

Ed,

This is valuable counsel which I do not see many young ministers following. Unpack your thoughts on this topic further ... What about the many pastors who shepherd small congregations where they may be the only ministerial staff member in addition to a secretary or assistant. How should that pastor conduct his ministry when the secretary is present in the office? Should he never come into the office during office hours? I know many men that would find themselves in this situation. I'm interested in your thoughts and the thoughts of others.

Ed,

To follow along Bobby's lines, I pastor a congregation with a large number of older adults. I am 31. What guidelines would you suggest in these matters? One rules I try to follow is that I won't hug a woman at church unless she is older than my mother (currently 54).

Bobby,

A good question. Honestly, it is one that I have never faced. The churches I have planted always hired secretaries well after we hired several staff members. What do you suggest in such a situation?

Jon,

I tried that and decided to make my rule apply in all situations. It is hard to say to a woman, "you are old enough" and to another, "you are not." But, let the Holy Spirit be your guide. Just remember, it takes one misunderstanding and your ministry can be over.

Ed, wisdom is never silly. The simpleton who walks into the enemy's arms is the one with regrets. Not you. As for the list, I praise God for giving the same instruction to me through Rick Warren. And yes, they need to be Laws as in, "Break this law, and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth as thou seeketh new employment." Sorry if that doesn't sit well with some of the brothers, but in the church planting world we have less leeway and more attacks.

Ed,
Great post on many points. Number one: Way to go with the health thing! I set a goal in January to finish a marathon. Over the last 4-months, I've had the best spiritual renewal of my life... read my blog on my experience: http://mymarathonblog.wordpress.com

On the primary point: Dave Miller said it best: "Third, any pastor who does not practice something very similar to these rules is foolish." Except I would take out "pastor" and add "any MAN" who doesn't have a set of these, what I would call "No Matter Whats" is foolish.

Frankly, I'd be very concerned about any male over the age of 12 who tries to convince me that they don't need these "laws."

Ed & Bobby,
My suggestion on the secretary issue is for the single-staff pastor to hire a male intern, perhaps a college student through NAMB's semester missions program? This is what we did in Maine, and it worked well for us. Or emulate many small-church pastors and hire your wife as your secretary (if her gifts and calling lean that way). Then you don't have to worry about being alone with her!

great stuff...it's a challenge that young pastors, and old ones, need to take on

Good advice for anybody.

There are two tools that I have used to protect myself and those I love from my moral collapse, similar to Ed's Shall Not list. The summer 1999 edition of Leadership Journal, James MacDonald wrote "5 Moral Fences" that I used in my pastorate- to the dismay of many members. It was the right thing.
More recently, Celebrate Recovery has 10 Commandments for CR Leaders that include many of these elements. Again, a good tool.
Ed, you have once again shown good discernment that others Christ-followers (not just pastors) need to take to heart.

I have a list of 20 questions I use with a group of guys. Accountability is huge.

But I really appreciate the tip on Saddleback's 10. That's pretty much how we roll as elders at church, but it's nice to have it succinctly stated.

Thanks.

okay Ed, it is your blog and your rules so no more Galatians from me.

blessings brother.

"Above all else guard your heart"

That seems to be good advice for physical and spiritual health.

I am a pastor. I follow those rules you listed as much as possible. I do make allowances for emergencies. We are 65 miles from anything in the middle of the West Texas desert. When I was in Kansas, I was asked to take a sick high school girl home during school. He suggested I take another young lady with me for appearances sake. I told him I would take two so I wouldn't be alone with the one for the 15 mile journey back to school. God bless your work.

Hi Ed, I thought it only right that I let you know i mentioned this post on my most recent article on Grace.

I know you moderate your comments, so please feel free not to post this. I only wanted to make you personally aware, that I was speaking about you and your blog.

Joe, I posted it. I try not to moderate disagreement, just did not want to get off on an argument about Galatians.

By the way, I wrote a bit on legalism here (or at least I quoted Swindoll on the subject).

Thanks Ed, out of respect for you I wanted you to feel okay with not posting if you felt it would sidetrack the thread.

Blessings brother.

So why, culturally, is this "not being alone with the other sex" rule such a feature of church life in the US, but simply doesn't feature in Europe / Asia?

I'm from the UK, but have worked abroad and note that US expats are likely to be much more flexible than their friends at home.

We Brits simply don't get it, especially in public places like giving someone a lift - we'd usually not give it a second thought. Maybe it's just a crowded island.

Please note I'm not challenging your rule in the US context, just noting the cultural difference between us in an attempt to see behind the two mindsets.

See long thread on this topic at Anne Jackson's blog at http://www.flowerdust.net/2008/03/14/sex-rules/

I think you should go back to that doctor and explain in depth why you in godly wisdom are not putting yourself in a position for anyone ever to even think that there is a situation set up for wrongdoing. But the reason that you should share with her, your godly wisdom; is that she needs to change her practice for her own protection, safety, and liability. We are to act in a way that builds the inferior in wisdom up; and cause the weaker not to sin.

I work for a church, and I have rules of my own as a woman, so not a problem with having rules...just remember, women are not your enemy. Too often I've seen people start going overboard to the point that women, especially women in church ministry of some form, are almost seen as evil or nothing more than temptations. You need to be pure...but women are people too. Don't forget that.

Sarah, that is a GOOD CALL. When I was at Southern Seminary, there were married men who wouldn't speak to a woman unless directly addressed (and even then, only briefly), would never sit by a woman in class, etc. Not exactly brotherly behavior!!

Sarah, that is a GOOD CALL. When I was at Southern Seminary, there were married men who wouldn't speak to a woman unless directly addressed (and even then, only briefly), would never sit by a woman in class, etc. Not exactly brotherly behavior!!

What this list says to me is : women are considered dangerous by men in spiritual power.

I would just ask that those who hold to a list like this take a moment and think of what being told that you are dangerous does to the soul of women.

Jennifer,

That is a very skewed view of Warren's list.

I am the father of three daughters.

I think it does no harm to one of my daugther's soul to tell them not to meet privately with a married man who is not her husband-- I think these are good rules to be followed by all, including my daughters, Donna (my wife), and me.

Ed

Ed,

I fully respect you (and your family) for knowing what you need in order to lead holistic, good, holy lives. I would never want to tell any person this is not a good set of rules for them.

But there is where I have a problem...

These lists (and there are many of them, I'm not picking on Saddleback) almost never start out with personal responsibility. No pastor is saying, "I have such a problem controling myself that I need to make sure I never have the chance to opportunity to do damage." Well, maybe someone is saying that, but I dont think its the majority.

What they are saying is either 1 of 2 things....

1. "You never know what a woman's agenda might be, and even if she's not going to try something, she might want to make accusations later"

or

2. "You never know what people might think and I dont want to be accused by anyone."

Both of these motives probably come from a very good heart, but the problem is that they dont require the pastor to take on the responsiblity himself. He can view the woman as a potential danger, or view "others" are a source of potential danger of another kind (accusations). Either way, those who are not in spiritual power are viewed with a bit of suspicion, as if they are somewhat likely to stir up trouble at any moment, and the wise pastor is just trying to avoid all the messiness of that. But, what he doenst realize is the subtle message it sends to those who are viewed with suspicion.

Honestly, I think what is outlined by Saddleback is probably a very good thing for some people in some situations. I have no problem if someone wants to adopt them to protect their own vulnerabilities. But its not the ONLY wise way.

I will share a tiny bit of my story to make my point....I was sexually abused by my pastor as a teenager. Like most abuse victims I believed that I was reponsible, and that I was dangerous. Lists like this made sense to me. But what I have come to see as an adult is that when men treat me as someone who is a respected sister, or a treasured friend, that damage is un-done in a way it never could be if I was still too dangerous to ride in a car alone with.

I'm not saying everyone should have the freedom to form intimate friendships with members of the opposite sex, or spend time with them apart from their spouse, or ride in a car alone with them....but I am saying that there can be much good in those activities too, and God can heal through them in the same way he can heal through other things.

For more info on this kind of altrnative point of view on having holy, but intimate friendships between men and women see Dan Brennan's blog. Lots of fresh ways to think of this subject.

www.danbrennan.typepad.com

Thanks, Jennifer.

Although I do not share all of your views, I do share your concern-- men and women are not enemies. Women are not to be feared. And, men in power need to take responsibility, not just make rules.

Thanks for coming by.

Ed