I was interviewed by Brian Proffit for Rev! Magazine concerning the "80/20" rule in most churches - where 20 percent of the people do 80 percent of the work. It's a good conversation to have and I wanted to share ours with all of you here on the blog.
I talked about the most common sin in many churches. I am guessing there are many, but I think one of the most common is a lack of obedience.
My observation is that we often preach against sins that are not a problem in our church (sins more prevalent in the world) while not preaching against sins that are a common problem in the church (like lack of ministry involvement in this case).
Here is the interview:
Ed, Group's church leadership unit has a vision of 80/20 by 2020. We want to flip the 80/20 rule so that by the year 2020 eighty percent of regular church attendees are actively serving in some ministry. Unfortunately, our State of the Church '09 study indicated that currently it's more like fifteen percent of the people who are active in ministry right now. Why do you think that is?
Part of it is that we have to recognize that we've created the system that we loathe. I don't think the reason 15 percent serve is because 85 percent are lazy. We've created a system that glorifies the clergy and marginalized the laity. We got the outcome we created programs for. We've become "clergified." There's a 3-tiered structure: laypeople, clergy and missionaries.
All religions tend to create a class of people who are above others so 1) they can revel in that and 2) the rest of us can say it's their job. Christianity was started without any of those structures, and ended up like so many false religions do when they create a ministry caste structure. When we see real movements of God take off, they happen when people are free. Look at the thriving house church movement around the world.
So how do we break free from that tiered structure?
Part of what we have to do is help pastors understand that ministry is something that has to be owned by all of us. We shouldn't call ourselves ministers; we should call ourselves pastor/elders. The church needs to be unleashed, and we have to recognize that it's the normal activity of normal believers to engage in normal ministry. Pastors and congregations are in a co-dependent relationship. My dad was a drunk and my mom would rescue him. She gained her identity from rescuing my father. The church has fallen into the same thing. We've created a clergy system with a superman syndrome. The pastor thinks it's their job to rescue the church--and they get affirmed for doing it. So we get our identity from doing things the people should be doing.
Once we've identified the problem, how do we fix it?
The way these things are always broken is that the co-dependent recognizes the problem first. So mom one day said, "I'm not going to take care of you, because all I'm doing is helping you to fail rather than stand." I tell pastors all the time to stop enabling that. If people ask you to talk to their kids about Jesus, say no. That's their job.
If I preach about gay marriage, everybody cheers. If I preach about sin you can hear the amens ring. But those aren't the real problems. I tell people that the biggest sin in our church is you sitting there doing nothing and still calling yourself a follower of Jesus.
Ultimately you have to get your leaders on board. I did a project on how you get people off the bleachers and into the game. We got rid of two families that got mad, and a year later everybody in the church was serving and the church doubled in size.
Use every form of influence you can to move the leaders and the people. As much thinking as we are putting into evangelism right now, we need to do that much thinking about how we're going to move ahead.
The elephant in the evangelical room is that we're not making disciples. People are still struggling through how to do that. We studied 2,500 Protestant church attendees and did so again a year later and the spiritual development was shocking and frustrating.
You've said that ministry goes beyond the church walls.
My guess is that above your fifteen percent there are another five to ten percent that are already doing some community service without their church tracking that kind of service. We need every member in ministry, but we also need every member on mission. Churches need to recognize that ministry outside church is still ministry, and we need to recognize, empower and measure that.
The term "call to ministry" is not a good thing. If you're a Christian, you're called to ministry. John 20:21 says if you're a Christian you're also sent on mission. The only question is where and to whom.
You can hear my speaking on that subject in my local church here. (All recent messages are here.)
Posted on February 23, 2009 at 8:38 AM ~ 26 Comments
Tagged with: 80/20, church, mission, missional, sent
Ed,
This was great - thanks. I have often said, "Don't let a preacher lead your kid to Christ." Way to go.
Also - We just finished Sent last night. It was a good experience for our church.
Ed,
Our previous pastor, who is now a national denominational leader, really promoted "every believer a minister" during his 15 years at the church. He would joke, "I have the greatest job in the world -- you pay me to get you all to work."
The church has found that one of the keys to get people involved in ministry is coming up with creative areas for ministry. We have a group of dog owners that have been trained, along with their dogs, for animal-assisted therapy with nursing home patients. We have a group of photographers that serve by recording baby dedications and baptisms to give the people photgraphic memories of these major events. There's a team of ladies that comes every Wednesday to help copy, fold, and stuff the bulletins for the next Sunday. And of course there are ushers, greeters, shuttle drivers to the further parking areas, nursery attendants, parking valets for senior citizens, etc.
I think a lot of the reason why more people don't get involved in ministry is they think they need a Bible degree or special training. Now if you're going to be teaching Sunday School, it's expected that you have some competency in the Bible and some teaching ability. But when people get the reality that ministry at its core means "service", and they don't have to have an M.Div. to do it, I think we'll see more people get in the game.
Ed,
Right on.
I think the single most rewarding thing about teaching my SS class is that, on any one Sunday, about half of them are out serving somewhere else. Most of them work in the Nursery every other Sunday, and several couples are out teaching every Sunday.
One upshot of that is that we have small class times .. 10-15 folks, which makes for a good discussion .. but have 35 or 40, plus kids, when we have a party.
I think I may be onto something!
This is a good post and accurate for sure. But I'm wondering if we look at this problem from a different perspective. Could the church have too many ministries,or programs?
Do the people exist to fill the program or does the program exist to serve the people? We have so many activities and programs at our church that there isn't enough people to maintain or justify their existence. And the ministries that suffer most are the ones that are necessary, Child Care, Sunday School, Hosts and Greeters.
People can only put so much time in a week for a church activity, we have to be careful not to tax them so much that they aren't absent from the community they've been planted to reach out to.
If most people are like me, the more overwhelmed I am with stuff to do, I end up doing nothing. Maybe if we limit the options to just the necessary ministries; be willing to evaluate and dismiss programs annually that no longer are relevant, fruitful, lack interest from people; and simply ask people to put in only one or two hours per week to serve, we may get more cooperation.
This is a backdoor approach at looking at the problem, without assuming that the success of a church is the number of in-house ministries it has; but the impact its body has in fulfilling the mission God has called the church to be in its community.
Good discussion.
"preaching against sins that are a common problem in the church (like lack of ministry involvement in this case)."
Lack of ministry involvement = sin? No wonder I'm ready to leave the SBC.
Here's a quote from John Pless to consider:
"Medieval Roman Catholicism presupposed a dichotomy between life in the religious orders and life in ordinary callings. It was assumed that the monastic life guided by the evangelical counsels (i.e., the Sermon on the Mount) provided a more certain path to salvation than secular life regulated by the decalog. American Evangelicalism has spawned what may be referred to as "neo-monasticism." Like its medieval counterpart, neo-monasticism gives the impression that religious work is more God-pleasing than other tasks and duties associated with life in the world. According to this mindset, the believer who makes an evangelism call, serves on a congregational committee, or reads a lesson in the church service is performing more spiritually significant work than the Christian mother who tends to her children or the Christian who works with integrity in a factory. For the believer, all work is holy because he or she is holy and righteous through faith in Christ.
Similar to neo-monasticism is the neo-clericalism that lurks behind the slogan, "Everyone a minister." This phrase implies that work is worthwhile only insofar as it resembles the work done by pastors. Lay readers are called "Assisting Ministers" and this practice is advocated on the grounds that it will involve others in the church as though the faithful reception of Christ's gifts was insufficient. It is no longer enough to think of your daily life and work as your vocation, now it must be called "your ministry.""
Instead of preaching against these extra-biblical "sins" and placing additional burdens on your flock, I recommend preaching Christ and Him crucified.
Preach Christ. I like that.
I also think we need to preach obedience to his teaching and the teaching of scripture.
1 Peter 4;10 teaches "each one" has a gift and should use it to serve others. Eph. 4 tells us pastors to equip them.
So, I am going to preach Christ, him crucified, and his call to serve others in his name.
Ed,
And, in fact, Hebrews says, as part of the command not to neglect assembling together, that we're to consider how to prompt one another to love and good works.
We're there to give.
Ed,
Some definitions would be helpful to me. What is "ministry"? What are some practical examples? Brian, Bob, and Vito (above) all equate ministry with some church-related program or task. Would you agree?
Also, how does this relate to the Protestant doctrine of vocation?
Thanks
"Preaching Christ and Him crucified" as an argument against using your gifts in serving as a part of the body of Christ is a cop out.
How do you define preaching Christ and Him crucified?
Is this not being involved in a children's ministry that seeks to share Jesus Christ with lost boys and girls? Is this not showing mercy and grace to the less fortunate and offering them hope in the name of Christ?
How do you define preaching Christ and Him crucified? One man behind a pulpit?
This lone-ranger Christianity must be put to rest. The Texas Rangers in the Old West had a saying, "One Riot, One Ranger" - which never really was true even though it's become a part of their folklore.
Neither does it work well for pastors - "One Pulpit, One Pastor" - doesn't get the job done and itself is a construct of modern Christianity.
Ross, your definition so limits the work of proclamation that we have no hope to accomplish the mission of Acts 1:8.
A re-commitment to the Great Commission is going to take a lot more than "professional" clergy preaching Christ and Him crucified. It will also demand more than punching in and out from the Christian factory worker you mention.
Great Commission revolution will see everyone - all Christ followers regardless of title, education, or position - to be active in the sharing of their faith.
"The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" - 1 Corinthians 12:21
Rob, I tend to agree. The Bible is a book that addresses the whole of life. It is not just a set of ungrounded ideas regarding spirituality; rather it deals with every facet of being human. It speaks about farming, food, love, sex, war, holiness, greed, salvation, and politics. The list is endless. Yet the Bible never divides these topics into those that are “spiritual” and those that are “everyday.” To use a Rob Bell's phrase "everything is spiritual."
Unfortunately, much of Christianity today divides life into the two areas of spiritual and every day. For example, this way of thinking sees going to church or reading the Bible or serving in a church-sponsored ministry as good spiritual activities, while a great meal with yet-to-believe friends or admiring a beautifully created piece of art are considered as every day activities that God has no part in.
If we are going to engage our culture seriously with the Gospel, we need to return to a more biblical view of life. What would happen if we offered people a Gospel with the potential of transforming the whole of life into a act of worship towards God? Imagine the whole of life becoming a living testament to God as his believers worship him, turning their hearts to him as the work, play sports, make love, create art, eat, build, dream?
Rather than reducing life to the categories of spiritual and every day, what would happen if we viewed life as that which God has transformed and that which is yet to be transformed by God?
By only worshiping God in our worship services we have turned our eyes away from what God is doing in the everyday all around us.
Ross,
Good to have you back with a question-- they tend to be better than assumptions. ;-)
No, I think part of the problem is we equate serving in the church system with obeying Jesus command to serve.
In scripture, believers are called to serve. When they are not serving, they are not obeying scripture. Some primarily serve other believers and some serve a hurting world. But believers are called to serve.
Part of that is done in our day to day vocation, but doing your vocation (alone) is not enough.
Ed
Lots of great questions and feel free to discuss them.
I gotta' go speak.
Ed
Great interview article Ed, and good discussion also. I agree that the work of "ministers" (grin) is to help the body know how to and get involved in ministry. Thanks for reminding us all of this important work Ed.
Powerful insight. I loved this article and on my relationship group we were turning it over in our minds as to why so many sit back and the weight falls on the others. Definitely going to have to bookmark your site.
Ed,
Thanks for taking time to answer my questions. You said:
"No, I think part of the problem is we equate serving in the church system with obeying Jesus command to serve."
Yes. I agree. But is this not what you are saying in your article? "...20% of the people do 80% of the work." I thought you were identifying this "work" as "work in the church system". Correct? Sorry if I misunderstood your point.
I think I understand and agree with everything you said in your 2:04pm post until the last sentence:
"Part of that is done in our day to day vocation, but doing your vocation (alone) is not enough."
I really need to understand what this means. Not enough for what? Am I guilty of sin if I refuse to volunteer to work in my church nursery (for example)? What are the consequences of this for me?
Michael,
Good thoughts - I didn't interpret the article in the same way so it's good to get another perspective.
I guess I have difficulty not segmenting out my days in some ways. Just like I see general and specific revelation from God - I think some activities are amoral/aspiritual. (is that a word?)
Modeling mercy and grace to the oppressed would easily fit a spiritual category for me. Whereas my multiplayer round of Halo on the xbox would not seem too spiritual.
I completely agree we've compartmentalized worship and maybe even ministry too much - but do we completely discount the gifts of the spirit through the local church?
Are there consequences with assuming all activity can be considered ministry or spiritual?
Let me clarify my earlier response.
I'm not saying that ministry only takes place as part of an established church program.
Being that friend who listens when the coworker is having problems is one way to serve. Fixing a meal for your neighbors while the wife is on bedrest due to a high-risk pregnancy is another. But these "cups of cold water" should be given in Jesus' name. Otherwise, you're just a nice person who could be a Mormon, JW, moderate Muslim, or even a kind-hearted atheist.
But I would venture that people who are not actively involved in some way in their local congregation are not very likely to actively minister outside the church.
To borrow from Eric Geiger's iDENTITY and the chapter on being God's servant (doulos), part of serving the Master involves serving His family -- His bride.
Ed, I appreciated your insight in the interview when you said, "The elephant in the evangelical room is that we're not making disciples."
Do you think that THAT is the starting point? I know it's a crazy notion among the church growth experts.
I didn't see too many references to discipleship in the comments, looks like it just might be the elephant that continues to be ignored.
Brian,
Good words.
We can do ministry in the church and ministry out of the church. Some might call one ministry and one mission, but I am not sure that is helpful.
I just think all believers are called to ministry and sent on mission. The only question is where and among whom.
When I am pastoring, I try to celebrate both by talking about both. If all I ever talk about is working AT church, people do not get we can also work AS church (in the community, etc.)
Ed
The AT and AS comment is very helpful. It is far more difficult, I think, to promote the AS. We are attempting something this summer in an effort to do this. We are giving Sunday nights to SS class and small group ministy events in our community. This is a pretty big deal for a down town First Church deep in the heart of Dixie. We are going to have a full worship service on Wednesday. We are calling the summer stuff Gathering (Wed.) and Walking (Sun. evening)to promote both the AT and AS aspects of our life together.
I'm really interested in what other congregations are doing to get people involved in working AS the church. Thanks!
The "consequences with assuming all activity can be considered ministry or spiritual" can be that Jesus is domesticated and reduced to our "homeboy" rather than our Lord. But, playing a round of Halo with a bunch of yet-to-believe friends for the Gospel's sake is a great example of serving Christ in the normal routines of our lives. In the end, however, the issue is a both/and rather than an either/or. To quote Ed above, "We can do ministry in the church and ministry out of the church. Some might call one ministry and one mission, but I am not sure that is helpful." While, we have been sent, we have also been called to all the "one another's" as well. That is, we are to:
Love one another (John 13:34). Be devoted to one another and give preference to one another (Rom. 12:10). Be of the same mind with one another (Rom. 15:5). Accept one another (Rom. 15:7). Wait for one another before eating (1 Cor. 11:33). Care for one another (1 Cor. 12:25). Greet one another with a holy kiss (2 Cor. 13:12). Bear one another’s burdens (Gal. 6:2). Tolerate one another (Eph. 4:2). Be kind to one another and forgive each other (Eph. 4:32). Speak to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs (Eph. 5:19). Submit to one another (Eph. 5:21). Regard one another as more important than oneself (Phil. 2:3). Share God’s message and admonish one another (Col. 3:16). Comfort one another (1 Thess. 4:18). Encourage and build up one another (1 Thess. 5:11). Live in peace with one another (1 Thess. 5:13). Confess sins to one another and pray for one another (James 5:16). Be hospitable to one another (1 Peter 4:9). Serve one another (1 Peter 4:10). Fellowship with one another (1 John 1:7). And yes, gather together (Heb. 10:25), in such a way that we can challenge one another to love and good deeds (v. 24). In other words, to live out together all the other mandates given above. But these do not necessarily have to be lived out in the context of a church-based ministry.
Michael, thanks for the clarification.
Brian, excellent thoughts on giving in Jesus' name - without that I agree the social gospel becomes just social.
In thinking over this post this morning and doing my sermon prep I came across Hebrews 5:12-13 - and I'm thinking that this has got to be related to the "sin" of not being involved in ministry that Ed mentions.
Ed,
Great article. I have enjoyed reading the discussion too. I feel that a major disconnect that keeps people from serving is that they don't see how Christianity really changes people's lives. Thats probably because they don't spend a lot of time with people who are far from God. Giving your people a clear vision of calling of your church to change the destiny of the people around them is imperative. Of course that is really easy to pontificate about and very hard to actually do. Any insight on this would be awesome. By the way Ed, its been a while since we chatted but my church plant is meeting in a Bar by Vandy now. I am hoping that will make our people continue developing a heart for the Lost.
Four days and still no response to my question. What does this mean?
"Part of that is done in our day to day vocation, but doing your vocation (alone) is not enough."
Doing my vocation alone is not enough? Not enough for what?
Oh well. I guess this thread is probably dead by now...
Ross,
As the line says right before you comment, I can not respond to all questions.
You are welcome to leave your opinion. You are welcome to ask questions (and I responded once). Others can respond as well.
But I cannot answer all the questions people post and continue to post new information on the blog.
Thanks,
Ed
I understand. Thanks.