As a life-long SB and church planter, we chose to plant our church as an SBC church, asked for no funds and give back to the Cooperative Program. We didn't join the local association and our state has never once contacted us. Our second year as a plant we were one of the top 5 givers from our association (a large association), yet never heard from anyone. I think that's an example of an area that must change.

Our church is very community-minded. We don't have Baptist in our name. We partner with other denominations in mission and service work. I think we as a denomination have to embrace Kingdom growth and not just SBC growth. This mindset must be in missions around the world and in our community. It embarrasses me when the Baptists only welcome other Baptists at our community events. Also, we must be known more for what we are for and less for what we are against.

Back to the old ways, my friend.

We didn't need "missional" anything sixty years ago and we don't need it now.

We need straight on Spirit-led Gospel preaching combined with an army of people who actually repent and then obey the Commandments their whole lives inside and outside the churches once they profess faith in Christ.

Call it whatever you want, "change", "reformation", blah blah blah. But that's it in a nutshell.

Put all the fancy phrases to rest and return to the simple and plain Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It's interesting watching the dramatic examples in our corporate world of what happens when an organization doesn't change to address a changing world. Notice the deep pain that GM and Chrysler are going through. Pain that is the direct result of carrying a business model from the 1950s-1970s into a new millenium. Pain that is greater because they didn't change.

Now if GM/Chrysler had changed (even slowly) over the past decade it would have been a little painful here and there. Now they are threatened with such great pain it is almost hard to watch.

I wonder how painful it is going to get for our denomination?

We need to realize our power isn't validated by the President, Congress, or politicos too many of our leaders are trying too hard to impress. We need to realize that our purity as a denomination has evaporated as we have failed to meet the needs of those Christ sent us to reach. We need to decline.

How can we honestly say we aren't openly political (to our deteriment) when articles are posted on the Baptist Press website glorifying capitalism and conservative ideals while ignoring ministry and missions. (example: http://www.bpnews.net/BPFirstPerson.asp?ID=30308 which ironically titled "Capitalism's biblical principles" but never mentions the Bible.)

Maybe its time to rethink and reorient. Hopefully we will see a rising generation (if we haven't lost them all) take their passion for missions and radically shake our complancy out of us.

The idea that the SBC hasn't changed in the last thirty years and has failed to react to its cultural environment is just ludicrous. I recently had the chance to review my Grandfather's sermons that he wrote in the forties and fifties and they are so packed with Gospel content compared to what is preached in many SBC pulpits today.

The solution is not more change in the way of cultural adaptation to that which is around us. That will do nothing but accelerate the trend that is happening now as a result of the last thirty years or so.

The solution is a return to the Gospel, plain and simple.

No more therapeutic sermons, three+ alliterated points and a poem or well-told jokes, or just plain old moralism as to how to live a better and fuller life. NO! Preachers, preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ with conviction. Live the Gospel out in your churches by being an example for those around you.

That is what God will bless--not more of the same. Just because you call yourself "missional" and adapt to the culture around you does not mean you are being faithful to the Gospel.

This may not be complete thoughts but here are a few ideas...

I think the needed change is rooted fundamentally in a commitment to the full sufficiency of Christ and the scriptures. In my estimation this will lead us to see several important changes:

1. We will be able to live out methodological diversity that is founded on these common commitments. This will allow us to plant and transition churches that are more concerned with the Great Commission than personal preference.

2. A commitment to the full/complete sufficiency of Christ and the Scriptures will enable us to begin developing a culture of trust rather than a culture of suspicion. One need only look at my own State Convention in MO to see the devastating effects of this kind of culture of suspicion. This kind of trust culture will take time to establish...

3. This will be attractive to younger leaders who are leaving in DROVES. But trying to attract young leaders without a commitment to the full sufficiency of Christ and the Scriptures is merely an attempt to place a band aid on a mortal wound.

Surely more could be said but these are some biggies in my mind right now.

Ed, you wrote:

but I generally believe in the trustworthiness of those in vocational ministry. They get beat up by plenty of others and I will not join the pile on.

As a pastor I say to you...

Thank you, brother.

And maybe I should clarify. I think the change needed is a move to the functional acceptance of the full sufficiency of Christ and the Scriptures. I think we say we believe it in word but do we functionally believe it; that is, do we demonstrate this commitment in our actions?

Interesting points. There might be some competing issues here.

On the one hand, might this indicate that the resurgence has also been a weeding out of of false professions and a strengthening of gospel preaching so that fewer professions and baptisms is actually fewer false professions and non-baptisms?

In other words, while the statistics may be accurate (of course we all know the old saying about lies and statistics), might they actually be a positive thing, or an indication of a positive thing?

Wouldn't all SBC'ers agree that there has been a rather weak gospel being preached in some places?

On the other hand, this might be the result of the soft "practical" preaching rather than the faithful exposition of the Bible.

I haven't seen the whole survey, but is there really enough information here to know much?

It may be like complaining that a basketball team is scoring 10 less points per game than last year without recognizing that they are giving up 15 less points per game.

This was a good read. Often an article or blog will focus on negatives and offer critique with no hope for tomorrow; yours is different. Thank you!

I think you're writing about what many of us are seeing and thinking about. Solutions? I think it is more than getting a new band on Sunday morning or a younger Youth Pastor with a hip hairstyle. For me, I need to not only hammer out what I believe, but offer and follow a call to action based on Scripture. As a minister I am feeling the need to schedule less weekly activities in our buildings. This is in order to free up our people and myself to spend time building relationships with the neighbors that live next to, across from, and behind our homes. It is my job to model this missional behavior in my neighborhood and to help equip my people to know and share the Gospel. Community service fits well with this but should never replace sharing the Gospel with our neighbors. Our acts of service validate our message to others, bring us closer together within the body, and let's not forget: HELP OTHERS! :)

I think as ministers, it is easy to point out truths and critique culture than it is to actually wade into the world around us and spend time with lost people like Jesus did (John 4). When we bring the Gospel to others, where they are, in ways they understand: "...and because of his word many more believed." (John 4:41)

Did you hire Kevin D. Johnson to illustrate your point?? Masterful! Well played.

Duke

Jason, some good thoughts there.

Duke, Kevin is not on my payroll, I promise. ;-) He has a blog and is a real person.

You are welcome, Jim, we are imperfect but we are in this together.

Ed

Knowing in my heart that I am headed for the "minority report" corner here, I say:

Kevin D Johnson.......are you my long-lost brother from whom I was separated at birth?

Ed S says: "It is an opportunity for discovering a regenerate church membership living on mission."

I say: The regenerate membership is indeed 'on mission' now in the local church. They are just lost in the crowd of unregenerate members.

Kevin said it. We don't need more programs or committees. We need men filled with the Holy Spirit, sold out to the Lord, caring not for the approval of men and convention, preaching the Gospel even if it empties the buildings....because the time is coming and may be here when they will not endure sound doctrine.

I'm here for you Ed...

Whenever you need me. :)

I am an associate pastor at a SBC member church that has for years done almost nothing to participate in the life of the Convention past giving to the Cooperative Program. Why? We saw no relevance for us and what we do on a day-to-day basis.

Frankly, the SBC as an institution is of little consequence to any local church. I am something of a social Darwinist (dare I say the word?) regarding institutions- if they serve a useful function and fill an important niche, they will survive, even thrive. If they don't, they die, and why should we lament the passing of something useless.

But, the important thing to focus on is that these statistics actually represent not so much the SBC as an institution but rather individual churches in local communities composed of individual believers, trying to reach the lost individuals around them. The truly sad thing is these statistics point to fewer and fewer people living in Christian community, fewer people exposed to the Gospel, and a larger and growing market share for hell.

By the way- if we were being really candid about Convention statistics, we should always have been looking at them not as absolute numbers, but as a percentage of the whole population. In that light, I suspect the decline began even further back.

Ok, I can't imagine this is going to engender a positive response from anyone, but here goes....

Is it possible that this decline is happening because, as Paul said to the Thessalonians, the end will not come until the falling away comes first. I mean, there are so many people who take the name of Christ on their lips but take stands on moral issues that are completely out of line with what the Bible clearly teaches. Not only are they willing to compromise on what they are willing to say is wrong but they are willing to vote for people who publically stand in opposition to what the Bible teaches. When the church is full of compromisers, wouldn't it make sense that we would see a decline?

I totally agree with Kevin's comments about the simple Gospel. Totally. I think though there are many churches in decline preaching the simple Gospel. The New Testament church preached the simple Gospel and grew, we can too, but we also must position the church in the community where outsiders will give us an opportunity to hear the Gospel.

Interesting.....while I was writing my previous comment....It took 9 comments for Kevin to become the butt of jokes for his stand.

I cannot help but wonder how much of this bureaucratic-solution-thinking is merely self-serving, geared toward job security. Without the conventions, committees, and other associated fol-de-rol, a lot of guys would have to get a real job!

Too many self-perpetuating man-serving institutions already in place. We certainly don't need more instances like the "churches" with $10 million budgets, 90% of which goes for salaries and buidings.

Maybe this convention is dying a well-deserved death.

Responding to some comments:
When people talk about getting back to the simple Gospel message it just sounds delusional. I mean, I agree with the words you are typing, but the attitude I sense behind it makes me really want to ignore you. You make it sound like its the easiest thing in the world, and if everyone would heed you then it would immediately fix all the problems we're discussing. I think if it were easy everyone would already be doing it. But perhaps I misread your intentions.

Response to Ed's closing question:
"What is the needed change and do you have hope that change is coming?"
I serve in what SB's call a frontier area. We are not rural, just frontier.

I had typed up a long response complaining about things and offering complicated solutions. While proof reading I got bored. So I'll summarize. We need perspective. We need to listen to and befriend lost people and people who disagree with us. We need stop enticing people to evangelize through guilt and start compelling them to live a missional life because of their identity in Christ.

There are many very hard things that we need to do.

Ed,

Thank you for this post. I think much of what we are experiencing here is as a result of a few decades of not discipling families who are Deuteronomy 6 Families (Deut 6:5-7)...parents who love God passionately, treasure His word, and teach it to their children. There are several dynamics at play here & I know you have written on these items.

One is a faulty model of spiritual formation/youth ministry. We have delegated the role of spiritual formation to the youth pastor instead of raising up parents who raise up champions for Christ (when it should have been a solid partnership). Many churches place far too little emphasis on the spiritual development of Children (their most impressionable years where they are open to the truth of God to begin spiritual transformation).

I think that another dynamic at play is that the Church (people) no longer has a true biblical worldview (on the whole). This is likely as a result of what I just mentioned above.

The two of these together have created a perfect storm for the church. Parents who are not involved in the spiritual lives of their children (as they are soccer, school, friends, etc.) combined with the constant messages of the world/our culture, have created a spiritual gap that we are now seeing.

I think as leaders we need to make a serious shift in the way we are going about discipleship. Churches have to partner with parents who love God to raise up a generation of Christ followers. I am thankful for the few out there who are addressing this and creating new models of spiritual formation that are making a difference. However, if more of us (churches of any denomination) do not make an intentional shift, we will continue to see more of what you have reported on today.

Thank you for your voice and influence. May God continue to bless you and your family.

Aside from one reference to this being an opportunity to pray, ONE, I see no reference to prayer, in the post or the comments so far. Despite the fact that Jesus said His Father's house would be known as a house of prayer!

Our church recently did away with a dedicated "prayer meeting" and simply have a 5-minute time around the tables at our fellowship suppers on Wednesday nights. I have not heard what happens in 2 weeks when those are discontinued for the summer.

I also recall that Pastor Cymbala stopped all the "programs" at the Brooklyn Tabernacle until their prayer meeting became their most important meeting. That seems to have worked out well.

Didn't God say the "fervent, effectual prayer of the righteous" would avail much?

Whenever I'm around Southern Baptists, I hear good preaching. But Jesus did NOT say "My Father's house shall called a house of preaching".

Frankly, I'm not seeing much fervency. And not a lot of effectual, either.

Or not. What do I know?

I guess I should have closed with something Matt said. Thank you Ed for your voice and influence. You are a bright spot in the convention. You are often funny too!

Oh .. one other thing (I forgot .. I'm old .. it's allowed):

As one of my boss's signs used to say, "No raindrop thinks it's responsible for the flood". That principle is why I don't think the trend is going to be reversed. What's everybody's responsibility is NObody's responsibility.

Then there's the whole thing about whether God has already found enough reason to depart the premises and leave us to our own devices.....

There is great hope for change and the future. Warren, Young, Stanley and Falwell prove that without any others needed. In my view its simple: pass the baton! This lack of trust in the future leaders is uh... obvious. And so they aren't comin to the parties or sending messengers. But they are still setting the pace and controlling the destiny. Hand the reins over to them. Some of them are nearly grandpa's! Yep, associations are gonna change if you do. We'll definitely rethink the way we DO everything. Like, I can't be a Southern Baptist pensioned pastor cause I run a charity that saves, heals, delivers and fills churches. Hmmm, some of them young bucks would fix that.
We have groundless fears born from our heartfelt stuggle to preserve God's word. But these guys are faithful to the Word and its Author. Hey, the priest's served from 25 to 50. There may be some wisdom in that. What percentage of the messengers were between 25 and 50?
OR... we can ride the titanic evangelical ship and disappear.

for what it's worth, i'm a 30-year-old minister who's going to stick it out with the sbc.

i think we're seeing the consequences of what bonhoeffer called "cheap grace." we tell people they are saved because they asked jesus into their hearts after hearing a watered down sermon with no presentation of the true gospel. why do we do this? probably numbers. if we had been preaching the gospel all along, including it's call to come, follow Jesus, and die (or "take up our cross and follow after him"), our numbers would not have ballooned and, perhaps, our churches would be more authentic.

just some thoughts, thanks for this post. much to pray about

The SBC churches need to be relevant and no that doesn't mean change our theology but yes we need to change our methodology. We have three grown children who love the Lord and passionately follow Him and serve Him. None of them go to a SBC church because as they say "they don't connect with me and where I am in my life today". All of our children go to church every Sunday but they go to non-denominational churches that have a similiar theology as SBC churches but a drastically different methodology for drawing in and reaching out to the un-saved, un-churched and saved people in their communities.
Wake up SBC and smell your wilted roses!

Personally, I think we just eject the entire Baby Boomer generation from the SBC and everything will be just right.

We want to blame the methods of the 50's for the decline we're facing but--let's get real--it's really the last thirty to forty years of unfaithfulness to the Gospel that's the problem.

Bobby,

Many in SBC leadership have a distrust of the next generation. To many, if they don't look like us they must not be one of us.

We have lost a large segment of a generation becuase of this distrust and the sniping toward them and how they do church.

Kevin,

You sure are commenting a lot today. Maybe you need to write up your own post on the topic. ;-)

Ed

Why am I reminded of the story of the captain of the Titanic who stood there saying "We can't be sinking - this is the best ship ever!"

The Gospel is, as ever, unchanging - but people are. Benj Smith, I believe, has a key point - we need to reach people where they are.

@kevin,

i agree wholeheartedly that we must be careful not to ridicule the older generations of ministers and churchgoers.

that said, i think we can respect and appreciate them yet still examine whether their methods and such are effective today. we should learn from their articulation of the true gospel and make sure that, whatever methods we test out, we too are articulating the biblical gospel of Jesus' incarnation, life, death, resurrection, and Lordship, with the call to repent, believe, and follow.

okay, 2 comments is enough so i'm done. good discussion

For what it’s worth, I agree 100% with Kevin D. Johnson. I would also add that the SS material by Lifeway used by SBC churches needs a serious overhaul.

Example:
These were the lesson titles for the March series in Isaiah:
“Meet Divine Expectations”
“Honor the Lord”
“Act on Revealed Truth”
“Follow the Lord’s Will”
“Stay Spiritually Alert”

So instead of studying all of the wonderful prophecies and gospel promises in Isaiah, we got boring moralism. In John 5:39, Jesus says that ALL of the Scripture testifies about Him. There’s only so much moralism one can take. Unfortunately, I do not have much hope for this change becoming a reality. In the SBC in general, I think most believe moralism is discipleship.

Benj – I would respectfully disagree. Method is NEVER neutral (see first post by mike).

Ed,

Yeah. Certain things get me going. I'll take your advice to write a new post under consideration but I don't mind playing backseat driver once in awhile.

Your church bus of a blog (and FB acct) has a lot more folks to interact with than the people I've got in my little Nissan Sentra. So, I appreciate the exchange even if it is at my own expense. :)

Ed-
I grew up SBC. Went to OBU in Shawnee, OK and did my Masters at SWBTS. I planted a church with NAMB almost five years ago, after serving in SBC churches for close to 11 years. I see what you see and have for years. For me, it's a question of both methodology and theology.

I agree with the vociferous Kevin that we have made bad decisions in how we teach men to preach. We need to repent of this. We need to teach young men to consider the whole counsel of God, to understand the context of the scriptures, and to find Jesus in every passage. We need to move away from theo-psychology from the pulpit and begin to talk about Jesus, but unlike Kevin I do not think that is all we need to do.

We also need to move out of our churches and into our neighborhoods to encounter people once again. We need to be missionaries in our world, and meet people where they are rather than expecting to preach a good sermon and expect them to come and hear it. We need to bring the Gospel in our actions so that our words will make sense.

Methodology from community to community will look different. Semantics and slang and cultural influences will vary from place to place. We must stop relying on the big box methods of the past and become students of culture rather than culture warriors.

In all of this, I honestly find myself on the way out, most likely. The chances of this transformation occurring in the city where I live are slim and none, short of a movement of God. There is too much dependence and focus on how things have always been and too much of a fear of change. Most young pastors I know have already left the building. I find myself in a room largely empty of anyone under 50 and almost completely empty of anyone who is willing to take a risk to reach a city. I pray that I am wrong, but I fear that I am right. May God be glorified whether the SBC lives or dies. And may His Kingdom advance...

So far, we've "identified" about as many causes to the problem as there are commentators to this post. The problem is so immense, it may be too late to put a finger on the one thing (or even a few things) that could be changed.

Full disclosure: I'm a thirty-five year old pastor that wonders why I'm still SBC. The Cooperative Program used to be my standard answer, but after learning how much of our tithes go toward bureaucracy, that's not a valid answer anymore. I think the house of cards has officially fallen.

Ryan,

I think you misunderstand me.

It is not merely a matter of preaching the Gospel but also living it--which would entail obeying the Great Commission: going from the church to reach the lost.

Where we likely disagree is the extent to which the contextualization of the Gospel is required to communicate to those around us. I feel...ehhh...not so much. You may feel otherwise.

But, I join with you and Ed in going out of the church and into the world around us to reach the lost. Definitely.

Today I listened to Danny Akin's Axioms for a Great Commission Resurgence message. Agreed with most everything, except when he said that I (along with Warren and Falwell and Young and Noble and many more) can never be part of the resurgence because we use the wrong preaching style. As long as style is a litmus test for "real" membership, many younger pastors will feel like outsiders--and many will continue to leave.

1. The ACP forms often are not complete when filed, if filed--so, unless allowance is made for incomplete reports, it would seem it can't be known how distressed we each should feel about the release of the latest related news.

2. Everyone blogging here, though, has a sense that things aren't right--just by looking around at the conditions of the congregations we either serve or attend every week.

3. When the CR began to take place, the SBC probably already was somewhat dysfunctional and in decline (Ed can confirm the stats of that or not); despite the spin, the CR probably was a symptom of that dysfunction--not that theological error didn't need to be eradicated if it existed among us (apparently, it virtually didn't), but if brothers can do to brothers what is claimed was done with no compunction despite the Lord Jesus allowing Himself to endure the agony of being hammered onto a cross to pay for that abused koinonia, then we have problems. The Missouri Baptist Convention's condition is a small sample of the same which I got to observe take place before my very eyes a few years ago.

4. The secret is: there's no secret. Ministry evangelism certainly must be contextualized and relevant to the target group, but otherwise we all know what we all are supposed to be doing. LifeWay's other employees tell us about it all the time. How many meetings talking about it are required? At some point, implementation will have to begin and be sustained through hard work.

5. If preaching were the answer, the SBC would have 160 million members, not 16 million. It isn't preaching, it's certain preaching--preaching that holds out the gospel for trusting and obeying, sure, but also preaching that holds out the mission of the church to the church and rallies believers to the mission (exposit those kinds of sermons). Didn't Kirk Hadaway's research 20 years ago show little, if any, direct relationship between preaching as typically practiced by the SBC pastors and the growth of those pastors' churches?

6. What I really believe until someone shows it isn't so: Christendom in the U.S. today requires both a Christian evangelist and a Christian educator--the evangelist to call God's people back to the spiritual health they have in Him and the educator to show them what to do with that restored spiritual health, else the evangelist will be needed again in about 3 weeks! I'm neither, but would follow the lead of either if it existed.

I would also add that the SS material by Lifeway used by SBC churches needs a serious overhaul

I'd go one further--I'd say trash it and start from scratch. Maybe do this crazy thing called "Teaching the Bible" rather than trying to use the Bible to teach what you want to teach.

Sorry to sound so negative but their SS material is really, really lousy.

This is an interesting post for me as my own baptist denomination, baptist union of victoria (australia) is also in decline, as recent research has revealed.

you said, 'We have been lulled into evangelistic complacency and missional inaction.' We struggle with this also. There are some voices being heard now who desire a paradigm shift, but sadly most are theological revisionists and see mission as social action rather than Gospel proclamation.

Any way, there's a few of us Aussie baptists who are reading your thoughts with interest and thinking how they relate to our context. thanks

Loved this quote by Hal Hunter:
"I am something of a social Darwinist (dare I say the word?) regarding institutions- if they serve a useful function and fill an important niche, they will survive, even thrive. If they don't, they die, and why should we lament the passing of something useless."

Ryan Abernathy,
Did you plant the church that you are in? If so, who is to blame for the culture and climate that has been created? Perhaps you are no longer at that church... but if you are...and it is a church plant...did you not plant it the way you wanted to?

What do people do to reach the lost when they go to other countries? They learn the culture seek to reach that culture with the unchanging message of Jesus Christ. However, if missionaries aren't really strategic about how they do that, it won't work no matter how much TRUTH they have presented.

We are missionaries in our hometowns. If we don't understand our culture--their language, behaviors, etc. etc. etc. etc--then we will never reach them no matter how much we give them the "old fashion message."

Andrew-

Sorry for the confusion man. I was referring the association of churches in my city, not the church I pastor. We are very different in many ways from the churches surrounding us. We hold a like doctrine but a very different methodology. That is what I am referring to. I am the only guy my age I see at most gatherings of pastors in our area, and most of those guys are wanting to keep things the same or move backwards or fight about "distinctives" than worrying about what is becoming of the city around us. It is sad and I am tried.

Hope that clears things up. We celebrate our 5 year anniversary this summer and are poised to continue on by the grace of God...

Ryan Abernathy,

Totally makes sense... Sorry for the confusion! Keep up the great work dude! Don't know you or your church...but I prayed for you tonight. Peace.

Ross - it's ok if you respectfully disagree with me. You have the right to be wrong... j/k.

Have a great night my brother!

Ed,

Most of the sniping that I see today seems to be coming from the younger Pastors towards the older Pastors. All the attacks and mean sounding statements seems to be coming from the younger Pastors about the older Pastors..almost like a rebellious child against his parents. And, what do you consider the older Pastors? over 40? 50? 60?

Also, I think it was Kevin that made a very good point. The generation of the 40's and 50's won souls like crazy...so great growth....and started many, many Churches. It looks as if this generation is the one dropping the ball if the SBC is truly in decline. Let's not hear so much whining and crying about how the older Pastors wont let me lead, and let's see the younger crowd get out there and do what the older crowd did in the past. Show us that you are truly on a Great Commission Resurgence, and why do they feel the need to leave the SBC? due to their not getting the leaders seats in the SBC temple?

Also, I think if I hear that we have to get out of the 1950's model of a Church one more time, I think I'm gonna puke allover my SBC Journal.

David

To start off with, I was raised AG, but have been SBC for the past seven years. I love the idea of the cooperative program. I love my church family. I love my pastor who expositionally preaches the full gospel and doesn't shy away from the convicting words of Christ. I'm blessed to have been discipled by a few godly men in our church.

That being said, my heart is broken. There are so many divisive battles taking place, too many old souls unwilling to adjust, too many young souls unwilling to learn. I've seen too many inter-church relationships destroyed in such spectacular form, that the fallout poisons anyone around. My heart is broken because we no longer live the Great Commission. There are lost people next door, across the street, and around the world, yet, we are tearing ourselves apart out of pride and jealousy: religiously defending our calvinism, arminianism, Driscoll, MacArthur, patriotism and capitalism (the new idolatries), traditional, contemporary, legalism, grace, young men's disrespect for old men, old men's unwillingness to teach young men... I could go on and on.

We have proven ourselves to be a passionate people! Why aren't we as passionate about Jesus? People are dying around us. People are hurting. People are searching (sure, culture is in a downward spiral, but they're still searching). People are going to hell... and yet we know WHO IS the cure!

Our pride has blackened our hearts. God is so gracious to have not turned His back on us completely, because we are in no spiritual state to be calling ourselves His followers. But in mockery, we do.

Jesus called us to deny ourselves and take up our cross and follow him. He commanded us to go and make disciples. He wants us to love. He told us to obey.
But, we cannot follow One whom we don't know, we cannot make disciples when we are not, we cannot love with the hate that fills our hearts, and we don't obey because we won't focus on the One who commands.

Young people are leaving the SBC because they aren't finding what truly satisfies. It's not about how many souls we can save (as if it's not God's decision), or having a rock concert in the contemporary service (or even having a contemporary service), or hearing people fight (often from the pulpit) about who is MORE theologically correct.
They want Jesus.
They need Jesus.

I am called to missions. I used to believe my calling was to East Africa/West Asia, but I'm realizing more and more that my mission field is right here, both in my secular workplace and in my church.

Painfully,
Nate

My 17 year old son decided to post on his blog about this post. Here from his generation:

http://www.nateedmondson.com

David,

I think you make a good point that as younger leaders we must get out there an do something (actually lead something that has kingdom impact). No disagreement there.

I'd also say disparaging older leaders is an unnecessary and unwise move. I am not sure I have seen that happen where I'm at, but if it does it should stop. In fact I relish the opportunity I've had to learn from older pastors that we're connected with as a young church plant.

I don't think you're criticism are quite on the mark though. I don't know many younger leaders in my state who give a rip about leading in state and national positions.

I guess in some ways it just seems wise to talk to those who are actually a part of the generation we're trying to reach. But we're not allowing these younger generations to participate this conversation (notice that's not an underhanded attempt to get power of some sort).

Volfan,

Yes, I have see younger pastors disparaging older pastors or traditional churches, particularly at some of the contemporary church events where I speak. And, I am quick to respond to such.

However, at SBC events, I have not seen that. Not to say it has not happened, but I tend to see the criticism headed the other way (i.e. prior generations preaching against sitting on stools and Hawaiian shirts is almost a cliche now.

And, at the end of the day, it is unhelpful either way. We need to see that God uses all kinds of churches to reach all kinds of people.

Ed

From Feeling Froggy:

But how does a "Convention" revive? A Convention is not an entity unto itself, but rather individual churches comprised of individual people. A Convention experiences renewal from the roots up – when the individuals who comprise the Convention are renewed then the Convention itself is renewed.

Renewal will come when God turns up the heat and does so rapidly. If God desires a revived people – and I truly believe He does – then turn up the heat He will. Yet hot water is painful. When our circumstances become more desperate, we will cry out to God and He will hear us. Isn't that the cycle we see in the Old Testament? God's people enjoyed His blessing, grew lax in their commitment and fell into sin, God brought judgment on them, and they repented and once again experienced the blessings of God.

The time has come for each of us to take personal inventory of our commitment to God. We need to ask ourselves some hard questions: questions not about our activity – we are quite busy. Instead, we need to ask ourselves hard questions about our motivations, aspirations, and affections. Who and what do we truly cherish? Whose glory do we seek? To whom or what have we chosen to be a slave?

The time has come to grow painfully dissatisfied with the status quo of our lives and return to God.

I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.

Correct me, LORD, but only with justice—
not in your anger,
lest you reduce me to nothing. – Jeremiah 10:23-24

LIke you Ed I love Southern Baptists. God touched my life through their collective witness. If I can change so can my fellow baptists. There is hope! The changes that are needed will be uncomfortable. But following Jesus always is. The rewards are worth it. Praying and believing that once again we all will move out of our comfort zones and into the harvest!

Ed,

I think much about the macro-level problems you have described, but the only real impact I have is on the micro-level -- my church and association.

This is certainly no profound observation, but the numbers on the large scale will change as individual churches reverse the trends in their own local context. A growing, Great Commission SBC will be a reality when it is made up of growing GC churches.

I pray our church will help reverse the trend and will be one of 40,000 other churches that will do the same.

Blessings,
Todd

great post ed. thank God for men like you. i'm not sure how you do all you do. you must be like doc oc in spiderman 2 and have 8 arms to keep all the typing going. i know how you are losing your weight (congrats btw)...it is all the tweeting and writing you do. wow.

god bless.

Just how long has the SBC been in decline? I believe, as others have stated that the decline started more than 2 years ago. We, in the SBC all joke about having 16 million members but even the FBI can not find the members that are missing from actual church attendance. And how long did a membership resolution take to finally pass at the annual convention? They would pass resolutions on alcohol, which denies the sufficiency of scripture (another topic for another time) but would flounder on calling churches to stop reporting that 800 people were members of your church when an average of 300 people would show up for worship on any given Sunday. If churches are taking the membership resolution and regenerate church membership seriously, then the decline in teh numbers is a good thing as most within the SBC would agree that our membership numbers haven been inflated for too long now.

And a decline in number of baptisms would not be necessarily a bad thing if churches were repenting of easy believism, say a magic prayer style of conversion. Or, like when I was a child(i am in my 40s), scaring a child to death by asking "if you died tonight would you go to Hell?" or asking a young child if they want to go to Hell. If not they better say the magic prayer. Then we baptize this child the FIRST time when he is 6-8 years old and then a second time when he realizes he really wasnt saved or "rededicates" his life. How many "re-baptism" have been counted among the baptisms in the past? We fail to see the distinction to when we decry infant baptism but at the same time, many SBC churches have no problems about baptizing 4 and 5 year old children. I am not trying to say that these conversions are not always genuine but often times or Sunday School and VBS tactics to "convert" these children are emotionally manipulative. We, within the SBC, need to seriously look at the baptism numbers that are being reported. How many also, are baptism as a result of coming from another denomination? We can not equate the number of baptisms reported to the number of salvations that are occurring.

Lastly, on the issue of younger pastors. There is undeniably a resurgence of reformed theology among younger people today. In fact, many people within the SBC will look at this report and say that baptisms are in decline because of the rise of Calvinism within the SBC. Younger pastors are leaving for Acts 29. As in the case of Missouri, we saw an SBC state convention stop funding a church because of the issue of alcohol. Really? In fact, a pastor friend of mine started a church in SC and received funding and part of the conditions is that he would abstain from alcohol nor preach on it. Is this really what the SBC wants to take a stand on? And then when you think the SBC is making headway in the relationship between both sides of the Calvinism issue through efforts like the Building Bridges conference, a John 3:16 conference will pop up that further drives a wedge between the older and younger generations.

It is time that the powers that be within the SBC wake up and stop the denial. Many older saints fought the battle in the CR but somehow have denied the sufficiency of scripture. It is time for the SBC to repent and change or it will continue a downward spiral and fade into irrelevance.

Ed, the SBC has been playing politics for the last 30 yrs. You may have spent all you adult life in the SBC, but I grew up in it. You do not know today's SBC unless you have some personal understanding of what it used to be.

I would love for SBC leaders like Paige Patterson, or Johnny Hunt, or Danny Akin to just once account for all the hateful unChristlike propganda they have preached from their pulpits that place sinners on one side of the cross, and Baptists on the other.

I am one of those sinners who happens to also be a minister. For two years I sat in the pews of Binkley Chapel at SEBTS and listened to the self-righteous, pompouse arrogance of men who preached Jesus out one side of their mouths, and hatred out of the other. The SBC is in decline because that kind of hogwash just won't cut it in the Kingdom of God. The world is looking for a Savior, not a political agenda. If and when the SBC repents of its wickedness, I have no doubt that God will restore her and use her to once again bring glory and honor to His name.

Reading the Baptist Reflector this monring I could not believe the "Critical Ministries" study showed Prayer and the Preaching ministries as the lowest percentage ministries as critical to the mission, future, and health of the church. Is it any wonder we are in decline?

Ed, I read your article last night which was a mistake. I went to bed sick to my stomach and could not sleep. I was not going to respond, but this morning woke up with a different attitude. Here are a couple of my thoughts:

First, the SBC is in decline because its churches are declining. I believe that "fixing" the SBC is first a local church issue. The focus of our conventions and associations and seminaries should be on the local church. The SBC exists for the local church, not the other way around.

Second, I believe that any resurgence in the SBC will be incomplete until it has reached the smallest common denominator. The missional dialogue is robust among the professionals, but virtually nonexistent among the laity. As leaders, we must help (lead, disciple, mentor) our everyday members grasp the biblical concept that each of us are missionaries wherever we are. A look at our "heyday" of the 40's and 50's will reveal that we had fewer professional staff and a more involved lay movement. The smallest common denominator in the local church is the small groups or Sunday School classes. That is where the church can most easily mobilize itself to impact lostness in its community.

Third, we must quit blaming literature for our failures. I run into this argument all the time. Poorly trained Bible study leaders will not be as effective in impacting lives through the Scriptures as a well trained leader will. The issue is less about the curriculum, but more about the people who lead our groups. People model their leaders! I think we sometimes underestimate the leadership potential in our Sunday Schools. It is powerful! If you have ever done a building program, then you know... a pastor can preach passionately about the plan and put his heart in it. But ultimately, someone in a small group is going to look at their leader and ask, "What do you think about this building program?" Whatever that teacher says will make it or break it!

In my carefully calculated guesstimation, I believe that at least 75% of our lay leaders receive ZERO equipping in a year's time. None! Not one conference, not one clinic, not one book about how to lead, teach, or disciple. Being a good small group or Sunday School leader takes a couple of things. It takes heart and it takes skill.

I know I have moved from the philosophical to the practical in this post, but my last point is that if we are to impact lostness in our communities, then we must get our people into the neighborhoods. The Bible teaching in our groups and classes is only as good as the implementation of the teaching into the everyday lives of our people. I encourage small groups and classes to have class mission projects. Projects bring them together in community, but also help them realize their commission is not to sit in class at 9:30 on Sunday mornings, but to take the gospel into their neighborhoods. Heart transformation in our teaching and preaching occurs when our people are prayerfully and faithfully doing with their hands what they have learned in their heads.

Sorry for the long post. But I'm ready to for the discussion to bridge over to our lay folks too!

Ed,

I'll weigh in on one other thing I spotted. I don't think all this has anything to do with Sunday School material. If the material were simply something to be read in a class setting, we wouldn't need to have the classes; we could just read it at home.

The material .. particularly the Teacher's Guide .. is, for me, material for the teacher to use in preparing the lesson he or she is to teach. The material is not the lesson.

Lifeway stuff is fine, even when they put out a lesson about "Jesus is The Only Way" 3 weeks after a lesson on Hebrews 5, and getting away from the milk and into the meat. That just challenged me as a teacher, to get serious about developing a challenging lesson for my class.

Those are good things, not bad.

Bob and Bob, I agree that Bible study literature is not the cause for decline, but let me suggest that we not get sidetracked by that. People use my blog as their chance to complain about a LifeWay lesson. It is what it is.

The big issue for me is: will we make the needed changes or will we grow accustomed to making excuses, blaming each other, and thinking we don't need to change?

If we need a movement of God, then where do we get it?
if My people who are cvalled by My name will humble themsemsleves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways then will I hear from heaven forgive their sin and heal their land...
I confesss I do not pray or fast enough... if at all...
I confess I don't look for a movement of God... maybe its my own cold heart...
and like us all, I love my sins maybe a little too much...
We need a move of God to make us seek God!

btw, I thought Exponential was great this year... love the passion and transparency of Francis Chan. Great diversity of training in the breakouts...

There has been a dramatic cultural shift in this country from say...1989 to 2009. That shift is reflected in the thoughts and positions of evangelicals, younger and older.

Otherwise, even among pastors and leaders with a high view of Scripture, the emotion and positional gap around issues such as spiritual gifts, preaching styles, and reformed theology will only continue to divide the camp.

Srong, vocal leadership is needed around the sufficiency of Scripture for Southern Baptists and the BFM being our umbrella for mission partnership.

Ed, you are right on with your comments. We need to categorize SBC problems into two groups. 1st - What are the fundamental problems facing all mainline denominations. 2nd- What are problems specific to SBC

On many studies I have seen answers to the 1st problem. But I see little practical research on problems specific to SBC organization.

I left SBC after 40 years in one of the hardest decisions of my life because I realized there are major organizational problems at the local church level that are not directly tied to theology. The conflict between many modern churches being staff run vs the SBC church history of congregational rule have created basic conflicts in organization at both the local, regional, and national level. I love the SBC, and my hope and prayer is for change, but just like the automotive industry, the change will be extremely painful.

Ed, I agree about the lit. It could use some changing but it's really not the issue. Delete point 3 from my post! laff

I do appreciate the robust debate on your blog. It broadens my perspective.

I believe the problem is much bigger than posted in this one blog and all of its comment stream. While agreeing totally with Bob Mayfield (and thankful that he is a resource I can use in my home state) - I think Wade Burleson has sounded another strong note at http://kerussocharis.blogspot.com/2009/04/we-are-as-healthy-as-secrets-we-keep.html

Just a thought.

Ed,
Thanks for your insight. We need to be different as individuals. We need to be about the Gospel and living it out as well as sharing it.

And we need more knees to hit the floor begging God to help us love and reach the lost.

Brad

Maybe our established leaders need to be open to new ways of reaching the culture. If the message is doctrinally sound and the fruits are evident, then let's give God the glory.

Maybe the newer leaders need to be wary of thinking they "have it all figured out". Surely there are some things that can be gleaned from older leaders who have demonstrated a life of faithfulness in and through all circumstances.

In the end, I agree that the Gospel is a great way to unite in purpose. When we focus on Christ, there is a bond of love that can allow us not only to tolerate differences in style or methodology but maybe even celebrate them.

Hi Ed,

So many pastors have led their churches out from the SBC or have a distant relationship because they are tired of the fighting, the beauracracy, and feeling like an outcast. I believe that there are a lot of growing churches that are SBC at heart but not advertising it because they don't want to be associated with the "stuff" that goes on.
There is hope for the SBC, but it will look different in the future.

Ray

Perhaps we could cancel the annual convention until we see the trend reversed. Use the budgetted funds (the millions bugetted) to directly fund new church starts across North America.

Instead of meeting in one place we could have our state conventions hold virtual conventions (like the Dave Ramsey Town Hall for Hope last night) and electronically report votes and decisions.

I think we as a convention (myself included) have to ask the serious question: for whom do we exist?

You are the Church!
R.A.

What is the needed change in the SBC? Or what is the problem in the SBC?

(I steal this from Chesterton)

Dear sirs,
I am.

Do I have hope that change is coming? I have hope that Jesus will eventually fully redeem and sanctify His bride...what that means for the Southern Baptist Convention I'm not sure...but I do have hope that God is on a mission and that mission will be accomplished.

Robert, I think that's a great idea!

As a beginning anyway.

Even for our state conventions people have to drive up to 10 hours from both ends to gather together. The cost for sending just the pastor is a couple weeks worth of offerings for some churches. Heck, I would be happy if some of our association meetings could just be a video conference.

As a compromise let me suggest another route (which may be pretty much the same as what you are thinking). Scale back the national convention and host a simultaneous online convention. Pastors across the country could log in to watch, comment, report, etc. I would be excited to attend something like that. SBC Exec Comm could even charge a small fee for registrants to keep tech costs down and weed out pranksters.

The way things are, when I travel I want it to be for missions, family, or vacation. Not for meetings.

Thank you Kevin D. Johnson. Hit the nail on the head. Too many professors and not enough possessors.

As a 28-year-old Pastor, I feel the SBC is not concerned with passing the baton to the next generation. Unless you were a first-hand participant/eyewitness to the roots of the Conservative Resurgence, the SBC is not interested in your opinion.

I care deeply about conservative theology, the success of the local church through evangelism and discipleship, and global missions. These are all things the SBC promotes, yet because of my age, my opinions seem worthless to them. I will continue to promote the aforementioned things in the church I pastor because they are crucial to our "success" as a local church.

I have expressed my feelings even at the state level (TX) and received a response in-kind. I will say that our state has begun to show some interest, but this in the last 6 months or so.

The SBC, on the whole, has missed several opportunities to pass the baton.

Christopher, thanks!

"The essence of Christ’s gospel needs no more than a mouth and a breath to spread" - Chinese Pastor

This is a good read for those considering these things:

http://www.strategicnetwork.org/2009/04/if-only-one-flower-stands-out-it-is-not-truly-spring-a-chinese-house-church-pastors-perspective/

The Great Commission will not be fulfilled in the SBC by all of us until the Great Commandment is fulfilled in each of us by the Holy Spirit. We can do the Great Commission if we will; but we won't because the Great Commandment hasn't been done in us. If the Great Commandment ever becomes a reality among us, the Great Commission will take care of itself.

Church growth is a spiritual thing--and an administrative/operational/educational thing. God is wholly committed to doing His part in church growth, and He's wholly committed NOT to do my part in church growth. The last Being out of a dead church is God; until then, He's there doing what He's committed Himself to do for the growth that congregation--but, again, the Scriptures seem clear that He will NOT do our part.

SBC churches get no better value for their dollars than when we buy LifeWay's Sunday School/small group curriculum. Used as it's designed--by people who are trained well to use it--gets us more bang for our buck than any other dollars we spend. The catch is: trained worker-leaders. Even students graduating from universities' colleges of education across the United States very often have no clue actually how to teach in a classroom; what makes anyone among us think that a plumber or bank president or whatever not trained to do it will be able to share God's Written Word in a life-changing way during the 30 minutes or so that he/she has to do so on a weekend?!

All of us have as much of God as we want--and that's the problem. All of us serve God as much as we want, and that's the problem. All of us tell others about Him and His salvation as much as we want to, and that's the problem. All of us invite our neighbors to join our churches--by whatever means--as much as we want to, and that's the problem!

"God, please give us ANOTHER NEW WANT-TO."

David Troublefield
Minister of Education
Lamar Baptist Church
Wichita Falls, TX

Hey Ed,

Thanks again for all you do for the Body of Christ.

I know that God can turn anything around at any moment, but is there any example of any denominations that have made the turn?

Also, does the unique structures of denominations make it impossible to turn one around, within the confines of the governing structures?

Keep up the great work.

What denomination continues to grow? What stirs a man to start a new denomination? What metric does Jesus use when he evaluates a denomination? Total size, number of churches, avg. sunday attendance, percentage of tithers, baptisms year over year...

What if in the end all denominations are like the tower of babel. Who would argue that ONLY the Roman Catholics have it right? I don't think a left turn helps at all, look at the Episcopalians. In the end each thinking person has their own theology (no one can know the mind of God). They subscribe to a denomination because it Closely mirrors their theology. We are like sheep in that sense, but only God knows the full truth. The SBC has not adapted to changes in our culture in a way that speaks to AS MANY young people today as it did yesterday. My kids don't like my music either. The secret is that the metrics don't matter. Jesus matters. He has to be THE focus. Not the denomination's growth or decline. If we fight to maintain metrics we will lose Jesus because He will move forward. If we fight to maintain Jesus, the metrics will take care of themselves by His design. My sense is that people are looking for something that will let them grow into their relationship with Christ without having to be a pro on day two. The SBC has the ability to look like it only wants to recruit pros, not people who need a chance to grow (and God knows this Christian thing is a process). If the goal is to keep the God fearing children of God fearing parents in the pews, then we don't have much work to do, but that should never be the goal. The goal should be to show the world that loving God with all that we are and loving our neighbors as ourselves is the path. They will know we are Christians by our love. Jesus has to be the focus. If anything else is even in focus it will decline eventually (because it is of man).

>>>SBC churches get no better value for their dollars than when we buy LifeWay's Sunday School/small group curriculum.

That is the dumbest thing I have heard all day. You have got to be kidding me.

'Sirs, we would see Jesus'

Ed, fortunately, I have been blessed by God for surrounding me with several older pastors who have been crucial to my growth, so this is in no way a generational bash. However, my question is how many times should we be kicked in the gut and expected to reply "Thank you sir may I have another."? Here is why I say that.
For years I have dealt with an associational structure that more closely resembles a caste system of good ole boys than a cooperation of churches who are kingdom minded. I choose to have little to do with them after beating my head against the wall for so long. We have been a small church by most standards even for our area, we used to have 30-4o attendees. In the last 9 months we have tripled to 120 on any given Sunday. Our people have a desire to be kingdom minded and want to get busy planting and doing other kngdom work. However, we have often been told repeatedly the wrong avenues we need to follow in terms of planting churches by people in our state office. Whether it is being given the wrong logistics, or can't return phone calls and then months later, come up at state meetings and say we need to get together and go over this stuff, what are we to do? When it gets known that we have at least explored alternative routes to accomplish the goals and vision we feel God has for our church, the comments from our state office is that those young guys obviously just need to learn the hard way. I'm sorry but I don't feel obligated to sit and wait for someone who just simply wants us to succeed so he can put us in his report, when he has done nothing to help us.
I would love for the statistics to be different than what they are. I feel we work very hard for Christ in trying to fulfill the great commission in our town and the surrounding area. However I am often left feeling that the convention isn't really working that hard for us.

Kevin D. Johnson: I'm certain that, with more practice at this blogsite and others, your reading comprehension level will increase. Hang in there until then, brother.

The statement stands.

As a life-long Southern Baptist, I will admit that I am not particularly proud of my convention but still get excited about the missions and ministries of the local church. In the simplest of terms, I believe that the SBC is viewed by our communities as the source for information about what Baptists are 'against'...and the local church is forced to overcome that negative burden before the world/community will trust us as a force for 'good'.

The foundational "Cooperative Program" that unified a bunch of rag-tagged Baptists into a 'Convention' appears to be neither 'cooperative' or 'unifying'...and as long as there is contention about the CP, it might as well be 30 pieces of silver in a bag. Conceptually, cooperative giving should still be the strength of the convention...instead, the money is now viewed as 'the power' and the struggle for 'controlling the power' has become the CP's legacy.

I “came to believe” in a small, dying, Southern Baptist Church at age 29. This was at the end of brief but intense bout with drunkenness, a failing marriage and business, and the death of a 12-year-old boy who’s father was my closest friend. My entry into the kingdom was intense and not very representative of what my friends and peers could relate to. Man, it wasn’t even very representative of most of my own life!

I was sincerely “on fire” for God, and within a few years was called as a deacon by church members (at the church my pastor moved to). Problem…I embraced the great commission with all my heart and saw friend after friend, family member after family member come to a Sunday service, feel alienated by cultural oddities, and not even have a true hearing of the gospel we so strongly advocate for. Not one stuck, to my great shock. In my world, the weird music and phraseology was only a confirmation of how messed up I was as a pagan. WRONG! It was only confirmation of a cultural separation, by either age or geographic dislocation, of much of the congregation.

My pastor took me to the Purpose Driven Church seminar in 1996, and I understood for the first time those needless obstacles that were being clung to at my church were a barrier to the gospel message within the sphere God had called my from. Ironically, I was trained so strongly in evangelism that I realized I needed to move church homes to reach my own sphere of influence better. My old church was a very needed outpost for those that were there and I felt trying to change its culture would not honor the people I loved there or God.

The closest church in the area I could find that fit my new Marching Orders to better reach out to my friends and family was not an SBC church. This was not by design, but by honest examination. Since that time, many family members and friends have either been saved or have found an authentic church home to be dicipled in, unfortunately not in the SBC. Friends, I was only following Orders.

Mr. Troublefield,

I see no need to be so insulting and condescending to those you cannot agree with. I would have preferred an actual argument in return rather than such pettiness.

Anytime you want to talk about the merits or lack thereof regarding the present Lifeway curriculum, you just let me know. I'll be happy to post the discussion on my own blog or I'm sure Ed could recommend the right place.

Any Sunday School curriculum that avoids the name of Jesus Christ for weeks on end to keep us on the prescribed bullet points the almighty Lifeway editors have for us certainly begs for a critical evaluation.

But, lest I get too far off track with this discussion, I cannot reiterate enough that growth in the Kingdom has little if anything to do with an effective Sunday School organization, a proper curriculum, or the myriad of other things pushed on us in the Lifeway catalog and website.

Growth in the Kingdom comes from the work of God in our lives and primarily that happens as He has outlined in His Word, the Bible:

"14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!""
Romans 10:14-15

The biggest issue I believe we have in our churches is that the Gospel is simply not being preached as it should. It is not a matter of pursuing his Hawaiian Shirt Highness' purpose driven anything. It is not a matter of running an effective SS organization. It is not a matter of contextualizing the Gospel a hundred times over because we have a low view of the image of God in our lost brothers. It is not a matter of stylizing our music differently than the previous fifty years (have we not figured out that 30 years of choruses has done nothing for growth?).

It is a matter plain and simple of preaching the Gospel day in and day out and then just living it. That is God's recipe for growth and doing so means we will grow as He has designed it and not as we program it. Any other way is fraught with danger and adverse consequences. After all, the seminaries have been teaching 10,000 methodologies over the last fifty years and what have got in place today except decline and decay.

Back to the Gospel faithfully taught and lived inside and outside our communities with the sort of fervor that unmistakeably garnered us the title of "People of the Book".

Kevin,

That's nine comments on one post (more than 10% of the comments on this thread), and two more after I told you that was enough.

You are always welcome here, but please limit your comments.

Thanks,

Ed

>> The foundational "Cooperative Program" that unified a bunch of rag-tagged Baptists into a 'Convention' appears to be neither 'cooperative' or 'unifying'...and as long as there is contention about the CP, it might as well be 30 pieces of silver in a bag. Conceptually, cooperative giving should still be the strength of the convention...instead, the money is now viewed as 'the power' and the struggle for 'controlling the power' has become the CP's legacy.

Wow, Paul, strong and hard words, but challenging as well.

Ed

I'll have to stand with Kevin Johnson and the others who affirmed the power of the Gospel over the methodology of the modern SBC.

The SBC was once known as being a People of the Book. Mocked incessantly by more "enlightened" denominations for the simplicity of its message and the utter reliance of the Scriptures alone for its doctrine, and condescended to for its urgency in proclamation of the Gospel (rejecting the more "sophisticated" messages of the day) the SBC grew to be the largest denomination.

What has happened that we think by our methodologies we will win the lost?

Tell me, O "People of the Book" what is the power of God unto salvation?

"Everywhere there is apathy. Nobody cares whether that which is preached is true or false. A sermon is a sermon whatever the subject; only, the shorter the better."

C.H. Spurgeon.

May God bring out the thunder and lightening that once came forth from the SBC.

How could it be that the early church survived without an official organization giving them literature and posters and selling them trinkets to promote the Gospel? How did they know who to love and serve without directives from such organization? Oh ya, they had Scripture and they taught it.

Did programs expand the church? The early church grew because "God added to their numbers daily". What was the church doing? They devoted themselves to the Apostle's teaching (Gospel), fellowship and the breaking of bread and prayer. They continued with "simplicity of heart". They loved each other and loved people. Not just mushy smiley hugging love but also discipline love. They talked about scripture. People were drawn to their love(God).
God does not need our help to draw people to Himself. He does not need a think tank to figure out how to bring people into the kingdom. What He requires is our faith and our obedience, preaching the Gospel and living in obediance. We have our orders from His word. Too many times our corporate programs release the local body from it's responsibilities to wait on the Lord, pray for his direction, and have the faith to take a step. We don't need to think because we have structured ourselve to have an organization do that for us. Because of this, many times the local SBC is rendered ineffective.

To many believers being a Southern Baptist has become more important than being a Christ follower. Local churches wait for the latest directive from Nashville. Local churches hesitate to follow where the Spirit leads, if it takes them outside the SBC sanctioned areas or methods. When we as a denomination decide to return authority to the Holy Spirit in His church then He will again add to our numbers daily.

Despite Kevin's ravings and/or ramblings, the statement stands.

Ed,
I am an old retired preacher/home missionary and my opinion may not resonate well with some of the younger bloggers I have read on your blog. But, I do know something about the decline in the Southern Baptist Convention. I want to say that I identify some with what Bob Mayfield said yesterday. A big part of our problem is that we as pastors have not taken the time to disciple the "laity". We have not been inclusive in bringing the men and women of our churches on to the front lines of ministry. We have had a susperior attitude about the "untrained" disciples of Christ. Seminaries, church curriculum and training events on a national level do not take the place of one-on-one discipleship. The smaller churches that I have ministered with as a DOM and as an interim pastor have responded to the invitation to "get in the game". Most of our churches in the SBC are small. But, the Lord Jesus showed us how to take a small group (12) and impact the world. I still believe that we can make an impact in this ever changing world with personal discipleship.

I wanted to add that leaving my SBC church was one of the hardest, gut-wrenching decisions I have ever made. A lot of tears were quietly shed leaving my church family for what I saw as a higher good. I have always missed them terribly.

But the truth is that church really doesn't even exist anymore, in the sense that many have moved on, including the leadership. I couldn't go back even if I tried in that regard.

I am part of an EV Free church now, and feel no allegiance to them in the slightest. I certainly feel no hostility either. I don't even think about the denomination at all.

I was a Deacon-in-training in a 150 attendee church, and became a nobody in a 1500 person church, that by the way had almost 10,000 attendees at this Easters services some 12 years later. I made this sacrifice for my lost friends and lost family members, but most of all for Jesus Christ.

Charles,

Your message was heard and very much accepted by this Christian. I believe you touched on the root of the problem. I can give you 12 examples of men who were not seminary graduates and yet the Lord taught them and then entrusted them with the planting of the Catholic (Univeral) church and the spreading of His Word. I wonder if they would have been chosen to do anything in today's churches. Not many SBC churches today have any faith in the congregants ability to minister, unless, of course, they hold a degree from an SBC seminary, or were brought in from another church in the SBC network. Instead of pastors sheperding and training the BODY to minister as the Holy Spirit leads, pastors tend to control, evaluate, regulate, confer with organizational heads, and then decide if and when ministering is appropriate.

The Holy Spirit lives in all who are His. He talks to them and guides them and has good works for them to do that He planned ahead of time. Contrary to this, often it is inferred, purposely or not, that church staff, or the Southern Baptist Convention are God's mouthpieces. People in the church are just there to do what leadership dictates is worthy of effort.

Perhaps if church leaders just taught the Scriptures and showed people how to love in their community, our churches would be growing. There is too much influence at the national level, and not enough listening at the local level.

God wants to use all of us mightily in building His kingdom. Laity need the opportunity to perform the tasks He has assigned, and use the gifts He has given.

When our SBC pastors begin to show faith in God's plan (without charting it out beforehand or waiting for a better plan for "corporate"), faith in the working of the Holy Spirit in each member of the body, faith in the Priesthood of the believer and an awareness that this work is God's s and not man's then true revival will come.

Linda, that was beautiful.
I would propose we all spend an extra few minutes today reading Paul's letters to Timothy (both) and Titus. Then we could pray for God's will to be done in the SBC (and maybe we should throw in the Catholics, Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians, and Lutherans). That we all may be one, and working together to the glory of God.

Mr. Troublefield,
I'm not sure why dissenting opinion is considered "ravings and/or ramblings" but if that is the case I would like to chime in with some ravings and/or ramblings. It is not you, personally, that I address and take issue with, but your assertions and conclusions that are by no means yours alone.

You state: "Church growth is a spiritual thing--and an administrative/operational/educational thing. God is wholly committed to doing His part in church growth, and He's wholly committed NOT to do my part in church growth. The last Being out of a dead church is God; until then, He's there doing what He's committed Himself to do for the growth that congregation--but, again, the Scriptures seem clear that He will NOT do our part."

I could not agree more with this statement! However, it can also be said that we CANNOT do God's part. Could it be that we are intruding into God's domain by "programs" to draw people and "well designed curriculum" intended to make the Gospel of Christ palatable or applicable? Could it be that in doing so we are preaching/teaching an incomplete and impotent "gospel"?

You further state:
"SBC churches get no better value for their dollars than when we buy LifeWay's Sunday School/small group curriculum. Used as it's designed--by people who are trained well to use it--gets us more bang for our buck than any other dollars we spend. The catch is: trained worker-leaders. Even students graduating from universities' colleges of education across the United States very often have no clue actually how to teach in a classroom; what makes anyone among us think that a plumber or bank president or whatever not trained to do it will be able to share God's Written Word in a life-changing way during the 30 minutes or so that he/she has to do so on a weekend?!"

This sounds extremely condecending, not only to the layman, but also to the Spirit who gifts/equips. At the risk of sounding argumentitive, do we really believe that in the 40 days after His ressurection Christ gave a seminar on "Teaching Effectively to Every Learning Style" ? Peter was a fishermen, with a working knowledge of the scriptures and a three year crash course in new covenant theology, but when the Holy Spirit showed up at Pentecost WOW! What makes me think a carpenter from Phoenix can share God's written word in an effective way? I ask myself this question every week! The answer He gives me is always the same. Because He called me to. And by His Spirit he equipts/gifts me to.

Exodus 4:10-12 (New King James Version)
"Then Moses said to the LORD, “O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither before nor since You have spoken to Your servant; but I am slow of speech and slow of tongue.”
So the LORD said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the LORD? Now therefore, go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall say.”

I am not a member, and see the SBC as the religious arm of the Republican Party. Southern Baptists offer elaborate reasons why the several hundred Biblical calls to aid the poor do not actually apply to public policy, and spend 90 percent of their energy on 1 percent of the Bible.

I know that perception may offend, but I think it is widely held, and there is no inclination within the SBC to change.

I don't know what more there is to be said after over 90 others have commented...

We're in decline and I don't think it's because our literature stinks or because we sit on stools and teach without 3 points and a poem. I think we're in decline for a few reasons...

1. We've become a denomination of professional Christians. I would dare say that most pastors no longer have any interaction with the lost outside of some formal visitation program. We outsource the work to ourselves, build campuses to enable the work and then train our congregation to provide the manual labor.

2. We don't train people to be missional. (largely because of point #1). We teach people to invite people to church so they can hear the professional present the Gospel. Enough of this, instead of our outdated "Friend Day" where we invite people to church, cancel church, tell them to keep part of their tithe and have them all invite their friends over for a Sunday cookout. I can promise this will be more effective in connecting people with their "friends."

3. We value conformity over creativity. I surf the blogs and I hear the one side slamming the young, stool using, spikey hair, untucked shirt guys alot more than I hear the younger guys slamming the old guys. And God forbid you say something about the big named guys...OMG...seriously...they're guys and they have their flaws too. They accuse the younger of being political because we blog but the hold a John 3:16 conference (which is very political) and nothing is said.

This is why I see guys everyday walking away from the SBC....we're not liberal, we're not gay, we're not green, we're not demon-possessed we're just sick of the junk and we're ready to minister.

I am an SB from the Philippines. This is just an opinion that long time I kept and I believe this is one of the reason of decline.

The International Mission Board have a strong policy against dependency. I am not blaming them for that policy just to be sure. But I believe, such policy have gone beyond the Biblical teaching of helping one another.

Their policy of zero "O" support for local churches except for their own projects did not do anything for the betterment of the whole convention (at least in my opinion).

IMB is doing this zero support campaign so that local churches in other countries will not become dependent to the Western support. There are advantages to this move.

But I will only focus to what it caused to the Philippines (at least in my world where I see things happening).

1. Filipino pastors are becoming allergic with missionaries, because all they want is statistics, but cannot and "forbidden" to seek financial help from missionaries since SB missionaries are forbidden by the IMB to give monetary support. The problem is, even with all the visual needs, missionaries are hesitant to help because it is against their policy.

2. Partnership between the two race declined so much with the same reason. Filipinos, prefer to work alone rather than to tie up with missionaries who are like thieves claiming a work which is not their labor.

There has been reports that some missionaries after some years of work in the Philippines goes back to the States and report to his supporters about his work. But the fact is, the locals are the one who labored for it. All the missionary did was to join them in their work and claim that he is training them.

3. This is not bad at all (in fact, has become a little advantage), Filipinos were forced to work harder to raise their own funds for mission work. At last, Filipinos are now learning to work more than they can do. And in fact doing far better than Americans.

The only problem is, the work has tremendously slowed down because of the lack of funds. With a personal experience, one of our SB Conventions in the Philippines sent a Church planter in one of the provinces. And after a while, abandoned him in the middle of his bills.

I always believe that there is a better way to solve the problem of dependency, but not in this way. I think that IMB policy on this matter is completely unbiblical. Thus, resulted in catastrophic decline. Not to mention all the factors like nominalism.

The Bible consistently encouraged us to help one another, to support one another, and to work together.

SB is only reaping what they sow. IMB sow independency, now it is reaping division and decline.

Just an information. Many Filipino pastors are great workers. They can work with or without clear fundings. But all they lack is a physical and financial assistance from what they call "partners". They are like soldiers out in the fields who believes that their command has a complete support. Yet they fight with no ammunition, not even medicines.

Hope this comment will be an eye opener.

I know Kevin got reprimanded for posting too much, but he's exactly right that this quarter's Walk Through the BIble series on Isaiah has been abysmal in terms of actually dealing with the text.

I would also note that our church may be one of the reasons for our numerical decline this year - we went from reporting over 150 members to 79. But our church and denomination is better off for our honesty.

We all know our numbers need to decline because of inflation - the resolution last year admitted as much. A decline is partially part of us becoming healthy again.

Not to say there aren't other problems that need to be addressed.

In the 1970s, some stiff competition arose for Southern Baptist churches: the Presbyterian Church of America (PCA) and Sovereign Grace Ministries. Both of these "denominations" have experienced astonishing growth, perhaps a lot of it at the expense of Southern Baptist churches. I am so glad that the Southern Baptists are embracing the partnerships available in the Gospel Coalition and the networks arising via Togehter for the Gospel. God IS building His church in America and is STILL including the SBC.

I'd like to humbly make two suggestions for all SBC churches:

1) Teach the Christian Counseling Education Fellowship (CCEF) materials to equip all to minister to all and strengthen the love and transformation in our congregations. Let ALL SBC members be "Instruments in the Redeemer's Hands." And, teach and study Dallas Willard's "Great Ommission" while teaching everyone the practical, difficult outworking of the Word.

2) Figure out how to dismantle entrenched, controlling, ungodly deacon boards, especially in rural churches.

By Philip Dorr on June 2, 2009 9:58 PM
Sometimes counting the fighting men/women of God can be costly. David's people suffered for his counting. Gideon found that counting on superior numbers meant nothing to God. Abraham had only 318 men to rescue Lot. Jesus only had twelve close disciples.
I'm a lay-person. I don't know a lot about Church building or Church planting or Church politic, but I do know that without a vision the people perish. We all have eyes, maybe what we really need are ears. I don't think for a minute that God has stopped speaking; I think we've stopped listening. It's never been about numbers with God and I don't think it is today either.
I've spent the last six years in Israel with the IMB. I've seen the world change dramatically in that period of time. I don't know what the answer is? But I will wager that God's answer is going to be something no one has even dreamed of yet. No one. Would you go against Goliath with five smooth stones? The armor of the day was put on the lad and he threw it off and took only his sling shot with him. Imagine. We've built mighty fortresses to stand against the 'enemy.' God might be waiting for the boy with the sling shot and five smooth stones?
My parents served in Gaza with the FMB. My father was a surgeon, my mother a novelist. What they gave me is what I have to say here. When God calls, you go, you work, you do. That is faith. The hearing and the doing. It's in the doing that you find your peace and can rest, for He is there.

The answer lies in MORE than "preaching" the homolized gospel. The capsulized, sermonized and memorized four spiritual laws have become little more than a secret handshake or a ceremonial password to enter an inner circle clubhouse rather than serving as a conclusive confession we share from a living lighthouse reaching into a floundering community. Jesus first felt compassion for the lost, the living dead. He lived his life on the road. He FIRST touched lives, then led the lost, with love, to wholeness/ salvation. Today, three fourths of the average local church resources are committed to starched and pressed professional staff and sustaining or morphing the church's mailing address. It is time to live beyond the clubhouse and commit resources in the community toward feeding; clothing; listening. Then, speak with compassion and complete the presentation of a living gospel. Dare not continue to pass over this preamble of compassion without risk of further disdain for a denomination and decline in participation. Perhaps we feel safer and more secure in our lifeboat than living on the edge of a commissional, lighthouse life.

i just can't figure out what some people are more concerned about: a denomination or the church

Vince from April 30 has described US problems as well. I used to work for an association. We had spent several years working on building relationships with catholic and other Christians in the area. Tried to do a large event together. Got lots of public support. Later after some behind the scene complaints we were told to uninvite all nonSBC participants or lose all the funding for our church plants, evanglism projects far beyond the single event. The decision was made to uninvite (one that I think was the wrong decision). The association has since fired all but one staff, has no relationship with the catholic church and probably should be disolved. This is in part the fault of bad denominational policies and some denominational board members that don't like working with others. I was laid off and have not attended an SBC church in several years. I still would love to see SBC suceed. I still believe in its mission. I just am not going to work in it as an institution without a lot of major changes.

As a SBC Pastor I hope to be part of the change that will hopefully happen in the next 30 years. Our tree is one that has needed some pruning. We have lots of dead branches that don't allow any fruit. 3 years ago I merged my church plant with a historic and dead SBC church in our area. in 3 years we have baptized more than the dead church did in 25 years. Ed thanks for being honest and sounding the alarm

I don't think anyone can honestly look at the points of the GCR and say that they are bad things to be done with one exception. Matter of fact all of them should have been being done with out some "national campaign" at the local church already. But the fact stands that they have not been done so we have to have another "national campaign". The sticking point for all those who disagree(me included) is article 9. Basically lets take money farther away from our local associations, state conventions and give even more to the IMB who already has the single largest offering in Lottie Moon. My state, KY, gave over 4 Million to Lottie moon. In a state that receives nearly 24 million total CP that 4 million is a stagering number. Our churches rally to the cause of missions and missions giving. That isn't the problem. I don't think anyone will admit it but I will say it anyways...the problem is money. Everyone wants more money for "their" ministry and are unwilling to work together seeing that most(not all) associational, state, and national ministries are good and beneficial. NAMB isn't more important than IMB and vice versa. Nor is the local state collegiate ministry more or less important than the Seminary. We do need change but article 9 has nothing to do with the need changes of the SBC.

I'm 28.
Went to SWBTS.
I work at a SBC church.
Most of my friends from SWBTS have left the convention and gone to Acts29 and Sovereign Grace to plant churches.

What is the common denominator? Those organizations attract young men, while (in my opinion, sorry no stats) these other organizations have and do attract them. How? Passion-filled, intelligent, reformed, courageous leadership. This is something I don't see from my SBC friends.

I also think we need pastors who will transition out of the pulpit and hand it over to young men who can take the Gospel to the difficult places of which they're too tired to do anymore.

Instead of sinking the ship, let's get fresh legs to lead her.

Ed,

After returning from a ministry trip to South Korea recently I wrote this piece called "Spiritual Impotence Warning." www.hikerdude.wordpress.com

I didn't write it with SBC in mind, but the lack of unity aspect certainly would seem to apply. Thank you for noticing that "the emperor is wearing no clothes."