07.12.10
A Candid Conversation with a Mega-Church Pastor Who Didn't Affair Proof His Marriage I
I had the opportunity of serving alongside and under the direction of Senior Pastor Brad Johnson for nearly seven years. Brad is undoubtedly one of the greatest leaders I have ever known. His passion for God's church, sincerity of heart, ability to bring about change, and his communication skills makes him a premiere church leader. Brad transitioned a rural Kentucky church and in the process grew her from a congregation of less than 300 to nearly 2,000. He left Kentucky when asked to come on staff at Saddleback Church. While at Saddleback he served as one of her teaching pastors and was given oversight of her Home Base ministry. Then a soon to be mega-church in Westlake Village, California came calling. Brad exited the well-known Saddleback Church to become the senior pastor at Calvary Community. It was there that Brad made the devastating mistake of allowing himself to enter into a relationship with a woman other than his wife.
Over the years Brad and I have spoken often of his story and how others can learn from his destructive decision. I asked Brad if he would be willing to allow me to interview him. His honesty and openness are not only refreshing, it may protect some of you from making the same mistake.
I hope you'll read this blog post each day this week.
Rick: When did you first realize that you were willing to slide down that slippery slope into a relationship with someone other than the person you were married to? Brad: The funny thing about slippery slopes is that one doesn't realize just how steep nor how slippery that slope is. As an example, in California, there is a rocky cliff called, Half Dome. Signs are everywhere that people should not get near the edge because the rock begins a steep curve downward toward a sharp cliff edge, and after that...hundreds of feet to the bottom of the cliff. Guess what? Many people die because they overestimate their balance, underestimate the danger and continue to a point of no return. Early on, I thought, "There is no harm with some fun." And I promised myself I would not go too far. I was sliding over the edge before I seriously considered the danger. It was so extremely foolish. Rick: What rationales did the enemy throw at you that broke down the invisible barriers making it possible for you to cross that devastating line? Brad: Initially, the flirtations were merely fun and I allowed myself to linger too long in the murkiness of all that. They seemed harmless and I rationalized (which are rational lies) that they were deserved. I reasoned selfishly: " I've worked too hard, I've served others all this time, I'm extremely tired so it's time for me. Aspects of my marriage seemed unfulfilling, so I thought: what harm would there be in a bit of attention from others? Again…pure selfishness and I swallowed the deceptions hook, line and sinker. It's a subtle slide. I should have remembered, most sin is all fun at first. Or said another way: I had already bought before I ever saw the price. Rick: Why do you think you were unable or unwilling to win the battle taking place in your mind, take those thoughts captive, and stop the situation before it got out of hand? Brad: As I realized that I was dangerously close to a fatal edge, I began to back track and scramble. The battle was waged in my mind and I told myself a thousand times: Won't get that close again, won't put myself in that situation again, won't see that person socially again. But there was a spiritual, gravitational pull from the enemy and I had allowed myself so far out near the edge that the forces were strong. And my thinking was drowsy. I didn't know how burned out I was and how vulnerable that left me. (no excuses…though…just an understanding looking back on it all). Further, I was suffering from deep depression, which I didn't understand at the time. Add to that a growing dependence on alcohol as a numbing device....and I went over the edge. One further piece of this tragedy is the lie I believed that I could not confide in anyone. Isolated and alone, I got way out on the edge before anyone noticed issues in my life. Rick: How is it that you were unable or unwilling to comprehend what your decision would do to your family, your church, your ministry, your reputation? Brad: A statement about our enemy is probably a necessary warning here. Though Jesus calls him the Father of Liars, we don't often understand that such a description means that he is extremely good at lying. His lies are believable. If they weren't, no one would ever buy into anything he said. His lies to me included: "You will NEVER cross the line (or the next one, or the next one, or the next one). Then, he 'promised' that I would never do it 'again.' Then he promised, I would never be caught and therefore would have PLENTY of time to make things right with God and return to a good path. Because of my compromised spiritual condition (which was actually the result of many micro -compromises), and because of my willingness to 'buy the lie' that I 'never would go THAT far' or that if I 'did', I would never be discovered, AND because of fatigue, depression and alcohol...I never thought through the depth of the consequences. And truth be told, the few times I did wonder about consequences, the delusion was so deep, that I had NO IDEA..NOT EVEN CLOSE… what the true consequences of such a decision would be. I'm now sure, that no one would make such compromises and choices if they could live a day in my shoes. But, as stated earlier, we don't see the price until we already bought. Rick: What would you say to the pastor who is reading this blog and is wrestling with the enemy's rationales but has not yet replaced those thoughts with God's wise words? Brad: Do whatever you must to separate yourself from the temptation. Run from the situations and people that are a source of temptation. Nothing you do is 'too extreme' to get yourself far from this set of circumstances EVEN IF IT MEANS that you need to Resign your church, sell your house, or leave the city. When the scriptures say, "Flee," the scriptures speak truth. In addition, you must tell someone of your struggles. The enemy's lie is: No one will understand. Or, You will be fired if they know you struggle so deeply. What I would say is: Nothing that happens to you as a result of confessing the struggle is even CLOSE to what will happen to you, if you remain isolated and alone in the struggle and succumb.
Wow, that's for posting this.
I 100% feel for Brad and his terrible decisions, BUT (and yes, that's a big but) - he in no way is qualified to continue in a pastoral role.
When we (pastors) make a series of mistakes, all in contradiction to the calling of a shepherd over God's people, that culminates in an affair, as far as "Pastor" goes, it's time to hang-up the cleats.
In some ways, It's a shame that this lack of respect for the high calling of Elder in the church is on display for all to see. I don't believe the qualifications for offices in the church are negotiable.
It's not about his desire to continue to be a pastor, or even his ability to do so, it's about the nature of that position. You must be set-apart, even if in circumstances outside of your control, if disqualified from that position, you should be.
The tragedy here is that Brad is not willing to accept the consequences of his actions, and thus learn/teach the real lesson here.
How many young pastors will read this, and protect themselves LESS because Brad is now in a position at a church they'd love to be in.
That's the sad part... Brad, please retire. Get a great job to provide for your family, serve in your local church, but stop pastoring, you simply can't be an Elder.
Blessings.
I agree with John Mark Harris. 1 Timothy 3 set forth the qualifications: the elder must be above reproach with a good testimony from those outside the church. When a man no longer meets those qualifications, he is no longer qualified.
That does not mean that he cannot be restored to the Body of Christ; we must make every attempt to restore him to Christ, but the sacred desk is not the place for those who have not lived by the gospel that they preached.
Spurgeon stated in Lectures to My Students in the chapter "The Minister’s Self-Watch," pages 9 and 10:
"The highest moral character must be sedulously maintained. Many are disqualified for office in the church who are well enough as simple members. I hold very stern opinions with regard to Christian men who have fallen into gross sin ; I rejoice that they may be truly converted, and may be with mingled hope and caution received into the church; but I question, gravely question whether a man who has grossly sinned should be very readily restored to the pulpit. As John Angell James remarks, « When a preacher of righteousness has stood in the way of sinners, he should never again open his lips in the great congregation until his repentance is as notorious as his sin. » Let those who have been shorn by the sons of Ammon tarry at Jericho till their beards be grown ; this has often been used as a taunt to beardless boys to whom it is evidently inapplicable, it is an accurate enough metaphor for dishonoured and characterless men, let their age be what it may. Alas! the beard of reputation once shorn is hard to grow again. Open immorality, in most cases, however deep the repentance, is a fatal sign that ministerial graces were never in the man’s character. Cesar s wife must be beyond suspicion, and there must be no ugly rumours as to ministerial inconsistency in the past, or the hope of usefulness will be slender. Into the church such fallen ones are to be received as penitents, and into the ministry they may be received if God puts them there ; my doubt is not about that, but as to whether God ever did place them there; and my belief is that we should be very slow to help back to the pulpit men, who having been once tried, have proved themselves to have too little grace to stand the crucial test of ministerial life."
Our willingness to put such a man back into the pulpit is man-centered rather than God-centered. It is not wonder that the world scoffs at the church.
Brad was my pastor when I was in Westlake Village. He was a great teacher, motivator, leader.
When he went through his fall, I remained his friend. I saw a man shattered. I saw a man humbled. One day he was the pastor of a mega church, the next day he was selling coffee at Starbucks--less than a couple of miles from the church in which he served.
How humbled would you be if you were a leader of a great organization one day, then a food server the next? Imagine having members of your former congregation come into the coffee house and look at you, judge you, belittle you, shame you. Is that not equivalent to throwing stones at a defenseless soul? Some people actually would come in, see him behind the counter, and then walk out without getting their morning coffee. It was pretty pathetic. I would actually here people grumble, as I stood next to them in line. But, Brad took it. It was painful to watch, to witness--first hand. But he did.
I don't agree with the way that Brad handled not disclosing his affair to our congregation. Nor does he. However, I also don't agree how the church leadership stood up before our congregation a few Sundays after Brad voluntarily left and made this huge announcement about why he really left. It was almost as if they were basking in the glory of it all. Believe me, if they could have called RadarOnline, they would have.
Frankly, I think the world is starting to smarten up to those "perfect pastors." What, pastors are sinless? Pastors have never lied? Pastors have never sided with board members against anyone or any issue, just to save their job--even though they knew they were wrong? Pastors don't judge? Pastors don't have egos? Pastors don't look at porn when their wives aren't looking? Pastors don't yell at their kids and put them down? Pastors don't have too much wine? Pastors don't abuse their power?Pastors don't watch the same garbage on TV that the rest of America watches? Pastors aren't lazy? Pastors don't talk about each other with jealousy in their hearts? Pastors are perfect?
Like I said, what the world needs now are pastors who've been there, done that, know what it's like to be less than perfect--have walked the real walk of sin--and now know the real fruits of salvation. How can you really understand the power of our almighty God without having experienced, first hand, his incredible love for you through grace and forgiveness? For me, I want a real pastor, not a Hallmark pastor. This is real life we're dealing with here...not some G-rated movie that takes place down on the prairie.
Brad has now started a new church. Like a lot of other less-than-perfect pastors who have had to start all over again, his church comes together each week in a local movie theater. There are no stained glass windows. There is no bookstore. There is no fancy pulpit. There is only a humbled servant who stands before others talking about the unbelievable grace of God--a forgiving God.
If you are going to post things here that question Brad's right to pastor others, then may I suggest that you have the decency and the courage to post your name--your real name? Otherwise you have no guts and, in my opinion, do not deserve a Voice. If you're going to stand up and make a point, which you have the right to do, announce yourself. Otherwise, sit down, please!
I'm a sinner. I've sinned many times. But, I don't really care what you think of me. You might whip me physically, but you won't whip me spiritually. I have a God in my corner who really likes guys who are less than perfect by the name of David. By the way, wasn't it King David--God's very own King David--who committed adultery and even murdered? Did God tell him to "take a hike" after that? Did God take away his stripes? Was he not the leader of God's chosen people? Don't some of you preach about him every chance you can get?
Some of you deserve what you get...an unreal church, with unreal people. You are about Religion, not Reality. Go ahead and continue to paint the perfect picture. There will always be perfect people who will side with you, give to your ministry, donate their house away in the will to you.
However, for those of you--like Brad--who have fallen and have been broken, God can and will restore you beyond measure--if you repent and ask for his grace. You are real winners. You have gone through God's rehab center. You have much to be proud of. You have much to say, much to teach, much to share. We, we sinners, need you in our lives. Please be there for us. Never leave our side. Always encourage us to get up when we have fallen. Always remind us that God is a God of grace and forgiveness.
Proudly Posted,
David R. Sams
I agree with David. I knew Pastor Brad when he came to Saddleback and his amazing spirit changed my life and gave me a boost into missions I never would have taken without his encouragement and him belieiving in me.
We all make mistakes, sin is sin. But God Is a God of forgiveness and second chances. Whay else would the Bible tell us that if we confess our sins He Is Faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness?
If God considers Pastor Brad forgiven, who is anyone to argue against God?
I side with God. I am glad that Pastor Brad is back sharing his gift for teaching. Why waste a beautiful gift because of a mistake he has repented of?
Thankful,
Cheryl Hyter >
"I side with God."
Well said, Cheryl (just one of the many reasons I love you).
I worked with Brad for several years at Saddleback; for awhile directly with him in the Missions dept, and we're friends to this day. I feel like I know him well, as a good friend and pastor.
Throughout Brad's struggle over the last few years, I've been saddened and confused by comments such as the first two we see above. Those comments have less to do with Brad than with others in positions of pastoral care who, in the same paragraph, not only cite Scripture to prove a point, but then directly and blatantly disregard it.
The bottom line here, gentlemen, is that it's just not your call. This is not an original thought - just one that is clearly stated in Scripture. I have a degree in Christian Ministry, and I'm the first to admit that it in no way makes me qualified to judge this man or any other. And no, not even a great theologian such as Charles Spurgeon has that right either. That judgement belongs to God, and only God, and I'm fairly certain He does not need, nor appreciate, our earthly input. How many Scriptures does one disregard when expressing an opinion, borne by judgement, in a public forum such as this? I believe that it is this kind of judgement that makes unbelievers "scoff at the church".
I side with God.
He who is without sin shall cast the first stone.
Thanks Rick and Brad for sharing this very personal story for the good of others. Every now and then we CAN learn from others mistakes/sins. Unfortunately many of us have to make our own mistakes. Satan knows how to tempt us at our own personal weak areas.
To those who say they "side with God" I would simply ask, how do you side with Him if you do not trust and hold fast to the Word he has provided us? Have you studied 1 Timothy? How do you reconcile Brad leading a church with the Words of the Holy Spirit as communicated through the Apostle Paul.
Please understand, I do not stand in judgement of Brad's soul, that is for God and God alone to do, but the body of Christ ABSOLUTELY has the calling and duty to determine who is worthy of being called an elder in the Church, its Biblical. This has nothing to do with living in a fairy tale G rated movie, or some ultra harsh sense of morality, it has everything to do with God's Word. If you refuse to acknowledge that, than I would ask, what is your basis for making your claim? By what authority or code do you determine what is right and what is wrong? If it isn't God's Word, than it is simply not worthy of discussion.
I don't know Brad and can't speak to this situation in particular, but I would say that Peter committed what might be the ultimate sin (if there is such a thing) by denying Christ. Yet he was restored by Jesus as the leader of the Twelve. I don't know that there's any sin that excludes someone from pastoral ministry. Certainly repentance must take place, and restoration will take time. But 1 Timothy 3 doesn't say that a person must have always had those characteristics. If a pastor's marriage is falling apart (for whatever reason) or has a problem with alcohol or whatever and he steps down and deals with the issue, why should he never be allowed to pastor again?
Hi, brothers and sisters. It's interesting how much I agree with those who have real concerns about me being back in ministry. I wrestled with those concerns myself. I wrestled with the rebuilding of character and reputation, with the lifestyle mandated by 1 Tim 3 (and other passages for leaders, and with the sense of God's renewed call on my life. It is not in my heart to be defensive, nor to be argumentative. I can only say that because my life did not match the expectation for leadership in the church, I resigned from ministry with no thought of returning. And then, years later, after God had renewed and rebuilt my life and reputation (in the very city where I fell), and once godly people around me affirmed that my life was once again in line with scripture (where I agree with your comments deeply), I surrendered anew to HIS call back to ministry. In addition to the passages on leadership, it has become necessary to also align my life with passages on restoration and what that looks like, with new life, redemption, the nature of full forgiveness (with or without strings attached.) I deeply desire that the whole of my life be aligned with the whole of scripture. Please know, I understand the cautionary tone I hear from my brothers and I take it and the calling of God seriously. I, too, am amazed at God's leadership and the teaching of His word which led me back. I believe in grace that amazes. If it's safe, completely comprehensible to human understanding, then maybe it's not grace at all. I stand in awe.
@Steve- The way I understand the New Testament, we are to love one another as God has loved us. God heals and restores. And if He wants to heal Brad and restore Him and strengthen His ministry, He has the power to do so.
Other pastors sin, but they don't all lose their position. The Bible also says that if you stumble in one point, you are guilty of all of it, so are you showing partiality with your position?
1John5 talks of sin that does not lead to death. And verse 18 says that "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin". Everyone sins. When they confess their sin, they are forgiven. When they go and get accountability partners like Brad did, I think that is a responsible way to help make sure he doen't slip and fall again.
We should all be so wise.
I have heard it said, 'Christians are the ones who KILL their wounded.' The God I serve is LOVING and FORGIVING NOT 'Religious'!! To those of you ready to hang and quarter him I would ask WHO is there that is worthy to pastor a church then? There is only One Man I know that ever lived ever attained that level of perfection. The God I know also is The God of Restoration. If a man clearly has a repentant heart, shouldn't restoration take place? If those of you out there really are deluded enough to think that pastors don't sin, I would caution you that is verging on worshiping those pastors.
I do believe people are forgiven by our gracious God. I do believe pastors can be restored after a time of healing. Take the instance of Peter mentioned above. But, can we please stop using other pastors sins to justify or make less of this sin. Yes, all pastors sin. They're human. The issue is ALWAYS repentance. Does that pastor live a life of humble, continual repentance, as we all should?
And I don't agree that I can only trust a pastor that has "taken a walk on the dark side" and knows what it's like. The Bible knows what it's like and I can trust it no matter if the pastor delivering the message has "experienced it" or not.
I do understand the caution in not wanting to be religious or legalistic, thinking we can earn God's favor by adherence to His Word. But, His Word is His revelation of Himself to us and His revelation to us of how He made this world to be. Our judgment should be based on the Word of God, not our feelings.
And I know it's not popular, but we, as Believers are to judge one another. But that judgment should always be prayer filled and in love in hopes of re-aligning that person with God's created order and for their restoration to deep relationship with God! Never out of self righteousness. But unfortunately the term "arrogant Christian" isn't as foreign to the church as it should be. Since the term doesn't describe true Christianity anyway. All we have and are is God's!
Thank you Brad for sharing. I don't know you, but I pray for you and your family's continued healing and restoration. And I pray that these articles will minister to and help not just pastors, but all Christian men striving to be the men, husbands, and fathers God has called us to be.
As I read through some of these comments, I am just floored at the audacity of people! I know that it's not anything new, but do you people read your Bible?
When David sinned with Bathsheba, did God take away his kingship? When Moses killed someone or didn't exactly obey what God instructed him to do, was he removed as leader? And look at all the others: Joseph the proud, Gideon the scaredy-cat, Jonah the angry, bitter messenger, Paul the murderer, Thomas the doubter, Peter the betrayer...and I could go on and on. Some of those sins happened prior to serving the Lord, but the majority took place after. God purposely picked the sinner, the weak, the completely jacked up person!
I am of the opinion that God allows us to sin, to fall, to be humbled, to be broken in the worst of all ways so we can minister better. We live in a sinful fallen world. Who can understand sinners better than a broken, repentant, forgiven sinner? Grace isn't just a novel idea- it is my life flow! Who wants a pastor who isn't the same? Who hasn't a clue what the concept of grace is about?
Thank you for this entire blog and conversation. I have been struggling with this issue for some time now... I had a good friend and pastor who fell and his story is very much the same as Brad's and after about 5 years, the leadership at my church helped him get back up. First to the pulpit, then to a pastoral role again. This decision tore apart the church as people had the same views as those of you commenting on this blog. However, when is enough, enough? He has since left our church (and started his own church) and has fallen a couple more times... and he is continually put back into the pastoral role... At what point do you stop claiming grace? I know this is a very unpopular comment, but I know we're commanded to forgive 70 times 7 and forever, but if someone continues to fall into sexual affairs, when does he get disqualified from the pastoral calling? Or does he? Like I said, I've been struggling with this... alot.
Brad's description of a spiritual gravitational pull from the enemy mirrors my own experience with an emotional affair I had a few years ago. I had allowed myself to get exhausted and had neglected my own self care. Like Brad I had no sense of how burned out I was. Repentance has meant not allowing myself to repeat my past personal neglect.
Hi Charleton. You may have noticed that I, as the blog host, have been very careful to remain silent throughout this series and the blog conversation it has created. When I read your statement, I really wanted to speak to it. Before I begin, please know that I do not know the individual you are speaking of, so I am speaking from idealism only and sometimes idealists tend to miss something that others who are on site realize and understand.
If I were an elder in the church where this individual is serving I would have the following concerns/thoughts.
1. Repentance is the outcome of a contrite heart. When an individual revisits the same devastating sin again and again, contriteness must be lacking which means repentance hasn't taken root. We must remember that repentance is a turning from and walking away from sinful decisions.
2. A church leader has the responsibility of protecting an environment of community. When individual choices are made that affect the entire congregation, and individual choices affect the entire congregation (remember Achan), it's obvious the individual is much more concerned about their own wants and wishes than the protection of and care of the community they lead/serve. Church leaders must model putting the protection of and concern for the community of believers above themselves. If they don't, others won't.
3. Leaders are held to a higher standard, that's biblical, biblical means that these are God's expectations. When a leader falls once, restoration to ministry is possible. When a leader continues to revert back to the same sin, especially this particular sin, the individual may well be restored back into the good graces of God's church, but it may be impossible for those who are under their shepherding to trust that the shepherd has as their key responsibility, the flock they serve. In this situation, the shepherd would seemingly be preying on the lambs they have oversight of.
4) Leadership demands a healthy reputation. People follow those they trust. If a sin of this magnitude is brought forth multiple times, there may be few who are willing to follow that person's leadership as the trust factor gets taken down another notch each time this occurs.
5) The men of the church whose wives are struggling with self-esteem issues or depression will be concerned if their wives seek council from their pastor.
Please don't misunderstand my statements. I believe everyone deserves restoration. But there are some leadership understandings that cannot be overlooked and some repentance issues that must be resolved.
We must ask ourselves some of these questions: If a pastor embezzled money from the church more than one time would that individual be welcomed back into the leadership role? If a pastor purposefully misled more than one church with bogus credentials on a resume should the next church they consider take them on? If a pastor abused their spouse consistently (physically or verbally) should the church just overlook that and keep them in a leadership position?
I don't believe any of the situations in the paragraph above cannot be overcome but multiple or ongoing sins of this magnitude repeated over and again, will probably make someone unacceptable to most churches.
I have sinned. We all have. Romans 3:3 states that all sin is equal. Those pastors that have commented and stated that Brad should not be in a position of leadership have you ever lusted after a woman that was not your wife. In your heart you have already committed the act of adultery. Then should you also not be in a position of leadership? Brad has taken the necessary steps to regain his relationship with the Lord. I agree that if someone is continually falling and continues to blatantly sin, then they should not be in a situation of leadership. I would love to hear Brad's sermons and lessons. Who better a teacher then one who had fallen and understood the struggles that we all face? I pray that God continues to use Brad to strengthen His flock. Those who sit in judgment of Brad need to closely examine their own walk with God. It should be the decision of Brad's church and how they feel about his leadership. Not really any of your business.
My comment to Brad please protect your temple. I do believe that alcohol probably had a lot to do with your decisions. I would recommend going to Alcoholics Anonymous. Alcoholism runs in my family and yes you can cut back to one or two drinks a day, but it is still an addiction. I pray that you are not only seeking advice from your elders and other spiritual men, but that you are also seeking medical attention for your depression. Continue to fight the good fight and fight for your relationship with God. The devil is sneaky and gets to the best of us.
Love in Christ,
Tabitha
Brad should continue to be a pastor. He will be a better pastor because of what has happened! I'm far more concerned about the pastors out there that we don't know about...