Between Two Worlds includes quotes from my time on the radio yesterday. The full details are here.
Robbie Sagers wrote:
Why do so many people say that they like Jesus, but not the church? And how can Christians go about changing that perception?
Dan Kimball, Kevin DeYoung, and Ed Stetzer joined guest-host Russell Moore yesterday on the Albert Mohler Program to talk about how unbelievers view the church, and how the people of Christ can reach lost men and women--those at the coffee shop, or sitting next to you on the bus, or those working in the cubicle adjacent to yours right now--with the only gospel that saves.
DeYoung and Kimball are both quoted. Dan and I have been friends for years and I appreciate his perspective. Kevin and I have not yet met, but we are speaking together and a forthcoming Reformed Church in American "classis" in Grand Rapids, so I look forward to meeting him. I have enjoyed his writings.
Robbie quotes my comments about authenticity here:
I think that authenticity is basically a simultaneous admission that I'm imperfect, in need of the work of Christ and the cross, but at the same time sharing that struggle in that journey along the way... I think that authenticity is built from pastors and leaders, but also from everyday people who say, 'Here's what Christ has done, how he's changed me, how the gospel shapes me, but I'm also the one who's filled with faults and failures--struggling, but trusting in the power of Christ.
You can listen to the whole program at the Albert Mohler show radio show site. Who knew that Russ Moore would have such a smooth radio voice?
And, in another post, Robbie also quoted me bringing some stats:
We asked a total of 1,000 twenty-something unchurched people; 900 American, 100 Canadian. And we compared them to a sample of 500 older unchurched (30 or above). ... And what we found is that yes, there are negative views of the church, two-thirds saying the church is full of hypocrites, people who do one thing and say another. But there was also great openness that's there. One of the questions that we asked them to agree or disagree with was: "I would be willing to study the Bible if a friend asked me to?" Among twenty-somethings, 61-percent said, "Yes." Among their older counterparts of 30 and above, 42-percent said, "Yes." That was a statistically significant difference saying there is something going on, there is an openness that's there. So we're seeing that as an opportunity that in the midst of some negative views of the church there is also some openness to the things of God.
I recently was in Rome, Italy and Marseille, France connecting pastors in the states with church plant opportunities in Europe. I was there with The Upstream Collective and the International Mission Board.
Daniel Ott was part of our team. Daniel is on staff of Southland Community Church, an independent Christan church in Lexington, KY.
I started my first church at 21 years old in the inner-city of Buffalo, NY and fell in love with being on mission. I planted there and in Erie, PA and started reading all I could on ministry and mission. I planted for 10 years, then became a seminary professor, earned a Ph.D., and wrote my first book. Now, I basically do research, write, and speak to pastors and church leaders.
Give us the Big Idea behind Lost and Found.
Lost and Found: The Younger Unchurched and the Churches that Reach Them is a book that shows the younger unchurched people are open spiritually (even more so than their older unchurched counterparts), but are closed to church. However, instead of just telling you that, we looked at churches and ministries that were actually reaching the younger unchurched.
Please identify one of your leadership weaknesses that's been exposed while in ministry.
I fail to take care of myself when I lead others.
How have you closed that leadership gap?
God has recently convicted me of that very thing and I have sought to lead myself into better spiritual, emotional, and physical health.
Don't worry about sounding arrogant or bold, but what are some God-sized dreams He's placed in your heart?
I would like to help evangelical churches across the Western world to take their biblically-driven theology and apply it as they live on mission in their contexts.
In his new book, The Divine Commodity, Skye Jethani challenges the church to make disciples of Jesus Christ who live above the culture of consumerism. This means we need to not only recognize the problem of consumerism (in the world and in the church), and change our behavior, it means we must develop a counter-cultural worldview that is deeply rooted in Scripture. I asked Sky a few questions related to the book, read the interview and ask Skye relevant questions in the comments. He'll be on the blog today to interact the the readers.
You're book critiques consumer Christianity but you doing so by selling a Christian book. How do you reconcile that?
My wife asked me this repeatedly while I was in the process of writing it, and it's something I hear frequently. "Aren't you being a hypocrite?" (If I had a dime....) I think the key is to understand the difference between consumption and consumerism. Consumption is a behavior that we must engage to survive. We must consumer food, water, air, and other resources. And many of us consume books, media, websites, etc. The Divine Commodity is not a critique of consumption (a behavior), but consumerism (a worldview). Consumerism is a way of viewing yourself and the world, and I believe it stands it opposition to the worldview taught by Christ. Consumerism places the consumer at the center of the cosmos, and affirms that the goal of life is to satisfy one's unmet desires, and avoid discomfort, by consuming goods, experiences, and other people. When this gets applied to Christian faith it warps our understanding of self, mission, church, worship, community, and even God.
You state that the church today lacks imagination. What does that mean?
Working for Leadership Journal, I've gotten around to a lot of churches and ministry conferences. Everyone seems to agree that the church in North America is struggling, and the explanations tend to fall into two categories--church leaders are told they either lack the right resources or they lack motivation. I disagree. We are the most resourced Christians that have ever lived (nearly $7 billion a year in Christian books and merchandise alone), and I don't believe the men and women I know in ministry are lazy. They care deeply about Christ's church and his mission. (Sadly many of these ministry conferences are driving sales of new resources or burdening pastors with shame and guilt, but failing to turn the tide of decline in the American church.)
I think our true deficit is imagination. We've embraced the mission of Christ, but we simply cannot wrap our minds around how to do what Jesus envisions. Without having "the mind of Christ" but desiring to be faithful to his command to "go and make disciples," we reinterpret the mission through the only lens that makes sense to us--the one we've inherited from our consumer culture. This explains why our churches are run like corporations, our worship has become entertainment, and why Christianity has become more of a brand than a counter-cultural calling. What we need are imaginations illuminated by God's Spirit to see a new way. That's what my book seeks to unveil by prescribing spiritual disciplines of re-formation and new ways of thinking about faith, church, mission, and God.
Explain the title. How has God become a commodity?
A commodity is something that is not valued for what it is, but for what it may be exchanged for. A subsistence farmer values rice because of its inherent rice-ness; because his family eats it to survive. But once he grows more than enough rice for survival, it becomes a commodity. He doesn't value the surplus rice because it's rice, but because it may be exchanged for something else--tools, clothing, etc.
So it is with God. Those holding a consumer world view see everything as a commodity--assigning value based not on a thing or person's inherent identity, but their usefulness to the consumer. In Consumer Christianity God has not inherent value apart from what he can do for me. As one sociologist studying American faith has put it, our God isn't the one revealed in Scripture--almighty and holy--but a consumer deity part divine butler and part cosmic therapist. Unfortunately many churches are failing to deconstruct this warped understanding of God, and in their attempts to attract religious consumers they may actually be reinforcing the idea that the individual, not God, is the center of the universe.
The art and story of Vincent van Gogh runs throughout the book. What connection does he have to modern consumerism?
In truth van Gogh has no direct connection to modern consumerism, but he plays a critical function in my book. Few people know that van Gogh was a devout Christian who studied to be a pastor and served as a missionary. But he later had a significant falling out with the institutional church. Still, his faith endured and is reflected in many of his paintings. His story of wrestling with faith and a culturally-captivated form of Christianity parallels my struggle and the struggle I've heard from many of my peers.
In addition, van Gogh's art--apart from being stirringly beautiful--is also a window into our imaginations. He expresses biblical truths in a form beyond the didactic. I really consider him a prophet-painter. His paintings help take the reader into the realm of imagination that I believe is so lacking in our churches today.
What is something church leaders can do right away to begin combating the influence of consumerism in their churches?
I think we can start returning the prophetic voice to the pulpit. Consumerism has banished many of these leader to the wilderness--or the ivory tower of academia--where few can hear their call to repentance, surrender, and renewal. They make us too uncomfortable, and when attracting a large crowd is the definition of a successful ministry, those pastors with prophetic inklings are never going to make the cut.
That being said, there is hope. I believe a lot of folks--particularly the younger generation of evangelicals--are longing for preaching that moves beyond the positive. They recognize that sometimes the only way to reach the positive is by traversing the negative--that the only way to new life is through the cross. I believe preaching, at its best, should inspire. It should pull away the curtain of shadow and darkness that covers our eyes so that we can behold a vision of the beauty of Christ and his kingdom. This requires two things. First, it means naming the lies and distortions (the dark curtain) that veil our sight. Second, it requires the illumination of that which is right and true and beautiful about God.
I am convinced that the most opaque curtain in North America blocking our view of God is consumerism. Therefore, it is our responsibility as preachers to name this darkness, show how it is warping our view, and pull it back from the eyes of our people. But critiquing the darkness is never enough. Once the curtain is removed, we must shine the light and illuminate a flaming vision of life with Christ in his kingdom. This is the inspiring sight that should fill our people and lift them to new heights. We must help them see the treasure in the field for which they would sell all they have to buy. This is what I hope to accomplish, with God's help, whenever I ascend to the pulpit, and it is why I was compelled to write The Divine Commodity.
Trevin Wax recently interviewed me for his blog, Kingdom People. We talked about our new book, Lost and Found, and the issues facing our churches and the unchurched younger generations. Here's how it went down.
Trevin Wax:Did you encounter any surprises as you sifted through the data as you were researching this book?
Ed Stetzer: Yes. Not only did we see some surprises, but also we actually were really encouraged by these findings. It would have been unfortunate had the younger unchurched expressed interest in things that we simply couldn't offer.
As part of a new feature here at the blog, I am planning to interview authors with books helpful for church leaders. B&H is helping me with the interviews (thanks Julie Gwinn), and it will include interviews with authors from many publishers about their books, mission, and focus. More on that later, but be sure to go by their church leadership portal, which is part of www.churchleadershipbooks.com.
There is a widget on the sidebar that will list each of the interviews so you can find them easily as you return to visit the blog.
The dubious honor of going first is to the Rainers, Sam and Thom, who have written a new book called Essential Church.
ES: What prompted you to write Essential Church? From where did the idea come?
I have had the chance to be in a few green rooms with Perry and he is a pretty interesting guy. First, he admitted to owning parachute pants in the 1980s here at the blog. Second, I would like to think I contributed to his personal development by encouraging him to update those glasses (he told me he has updated them, so that is good news). Third, there are few churches that would actually point to YouTube videos criticizing them, but they did (and, full confession, I watched the video twice).
Perry Noble is the founding and senior pastor of NewSpring Church in Anderson and Greenville, South Carolina. At just eight years old the church averages over 8,000 people during weekend services and is launching another campus in Florence, South Carolina this year to reach more people. NewSpring is also launching an "internet campus" in 2009. Perry will tell you their growth is the fruit of God's work through the clear preaching of the gospel. Someone else might want to clam it's the satanic influence of Guitar Hero. Knowing Perry and NewSpring church - I believe it is their passion to see men and women reached for the gospel.
LifeWay Research had the opportunity to talk with Perry about what's happening at NewSpring.
LifeWay Research: Perry can you tell us why you think New Spring is growing?
Pastor Perry Noble: I think there are a couple of things that our church is doing but first of all let me just say this. I don't think we are the perfect church at all. And ultimately it is just by God's grace that we are growing. I really don't know, but if I had to guess, two things pop out in my mind.
Number one, our main focus is Jesus Christ. We focus on the gospel. I preach salvation. I don't have time to get caught up in political agendas or Christian boycotts or start campaigning for some sort of moral agenda. I am called by God to preach and teach the gospel because the gospel changes lives. So I don't allow myself to get side tracked on what I would consider to be either non essential issues or controversial issues that haven't been solved for like 500 or 1000 years and never will be solved this side of heaven. I just want to tell people about who Jesus is because back in 1990 I was pretty much on my way to hell and Jesus changed my life. And I just think he can do it for everybody and he is still changing me, even today. Even though I am a Christian, he is still continuing to shape me.
Secondly, we have fought really hard to keep things very simple. I don't think that success in the church means you have more to do. I believe it means you have less to do. And so we don't allow programs to dictate every night of the week or whatever. We keep things really simple. Dr. Rainer and his book Simple Church was just a huge confirmation that we have got that right. We want to be very simple in everything we do. We want to be very strategic in everything we do. And so we just keep things lean and focus on Jesus.
LWR: You have been sharing God's word in some very interesting ways through your sermon series such as the "You Asked For It" series. How did this series come about?
Noble: Honestly, I listen to a lot of podcasts. I listened to Mark Driscoll and he did this series. He said he was reading through the book of 1 Corinthians and he realized that the book of 1 and 2 Corinthians was basically brought on by the Church in Corinth writing Paul a letter asking him a bunch of questions. And so he was like, "Well, I want to do that for my church." And so he had his church submit questions. And they went on the website and they voted and they did all that stuff. He did like a nine to ten week series based on the results of the internet survey. And so I was like "Wow, We should try that."
Mark Driscoll is in Seattle and New Spring is in Anderson, so I knew the questions were going to be completely different. I was right. The questions were different. In April we allowed people to write in their questions or submit them online. After they were submitted we categorized them into 18 categories. We then put these 18 categories on the website and allowed people to vote on which ones they most wanted to address. This step happened over the course of a month and there were over 4000 votes. We then picked the top six and those were the subjects of my sermons.
LWR: Are you always thinking outside of the box? What are some other areas that you are looking for to make your messages relevant to your people?
Noble: I think one of the things I am trying to do is trying to figure out how to cut down my message time. I preach for like 50 minutes to an hour. I would really like to cut it down. You know, when you consider the average sitcom is 22 minutes [once commercials are removed]. In those 22 minutes they completely develop characters, a plot and bring resolution to a conflict. I don't think I'll ever preach 22 minutes, but I am trying to cut my message time down.
The other thing I am trying to do is to make my messages memorable with a stage prop or something like that. I don't do that all the time because I don't want the tail to ever wag the dog, and I believe the gospel should be the central part of every message. Everything done in the message or in the service should be done to enhance the gospel. I don't ever want to say, "Here is a cool illustration. How can we revolve the gospel around it?" I always want to go, "This is the gospel. What can we do to really drill this in to somebody's mind?"
LWR: In recent years the church trend has been to start multi-sites or to plant churches. I think now we beginning to see a new trend in the form of internet campuses. New Spring is beginning a virtual campus in 2009. Tell us a bit about that journey.
Noble: Well, I am very excited because I just think that one of the things that the Church is going to have to do is accept that technology is here to stay.
I heard Rick Warren say one time - "I don't think God allowed us to have the internet so pornography can become the giant in the world. I think God allowed us to have the internet so we could reach the world." I believe this with all my heart.
You know, when Jesus is talking about end times in Matthew 24 and again in the gospel of Luke he says one of the signs of the times coming to an end is the gospel will be preached all over the world. Well, through the internet I can share Jesus in countries where I am technically not allowed to go. I can't go in there as a missionary. I can't go in there as a pastor. But I can go in there online and people will watch. And so I am really excited because the internet campus opens up a huge, huge, huge audience that otherwise I wouldn't have the privilege of telling them about Jesus. That is why I am more excited because at heart I am just an evangelist. I think it takes evangelism to the next level.
LWR: Which church/churches did you study for the development of your internet campus? Is New Spring modeling their internet ministry after any other church?
Noble: We studied Life Church pretty closely and asked the a lot of questions. Craig and those guys do it just as good as anybody out there. Tony Morgan is actually over a lot of our internet stuff and the development of it.
LWR: What advice would you give to churches in America? What elements would you say are a must in any church?
Noble: I would say two things. Number one, you must keep your focus on Jesus. Don't lose sight of the gospel. Don't lose sight of the fact that people are dying and going to go to hell unless they know Jesus. If the church loses the centrality and the urgency of that message, I think the church dies. And I think the reason that churches all over America today are closing their doors and shutting down is because they forget the gospel. They have forgotten that Jesus Christ died on a cross not so we could have a holy huddle or a stained glass fortress or us four and no more. He died on a cross so that we could reach the world. They have got sin in their lives. And because of that they are separated from God. They go to hell. That is not necessary. Jesus died on the cross to make forgiveness and redemption completely possible.
Number two, don't try to be anything except who God called you to be. Maybe God didn't call you to go multi-site. Maybe God called you to one location. You need to be completely content with that. Maybe God called you to go plant churches instead of doing video venues. You need to do that. Maybe God told you to do video venues and plant churches. You need to do that. You don't ever, every need to feel pressure because another church somewhere else in America or somewhere else in the world is doing something to think, "Oh, wow, we have got do that." Our call as a church is to do exactly what God called us to do. In the book of Revelation chapter two and chapter three Jesus gives seven different messages to seven different churches. If he wanted every church to be the same he would have just said, "All right. Here is my message to every church and it is just the same." But he addressed seven churches specifically and said, "Here is what is going on with you. Here is what is going on with you. Here is what is going on with you." I just think that each church has a unique DNA that it needs to focus on. The gospel should be central, but the strategy and the structure of the church should be completely open to the leadership of the Holy Spirit.
Perry's blog, perrynoble.com, is in my Google reader and is always an interesting read.
Watch and pray for Perry as I believe his influence will continue to grow.
Posted on October 1, 2008 at 12:09 PM ~ 5 Comments
I am worn out after a long day at Whiteboard Sessions. Since I knew most of the speakers, they asked me to interview them... which was rewarding and exhausting at the same time. You can watch the interviews here.
Later, here at the blog, I will post the interviews individually with some commentary... they were very different from one another and said some, well, different things.
But tomorrow is a short church planting event in the morning (the event goes longer, I just speak in the morning, see here). Then, I am off, gone, outa' here to spend the weekend with my daughters in Washington D.C.
