The newest issue of Biola Magazine is about "The Church in the Missional Age." I was interviewed for this issue and thought I'd share some of that conversation here. Be sure to read the whole thing at the Biola Magazine website, then come back here to discuss.

BM: Ed, would you say that the average Christian has an understanding of the term "missional"? Or is it still an "insider term" among church leaders and theologians?

ES: I would say the term has started to gain wide acceptance since the turn of the millennium among Christian leaders, however I don't think it has gotten down to the rank-and-file level. I've written a book, Compelled by Love, which is trying to be a lay-level explanation of missional, and other authors are trying to do the same. But yeah, primarily it's still a pastor's or theologian's word.

BM: My sense is that there is widespread confusion about the word, even among the pastors and theologians. Is the word useful? Is it too confusing for its own good?

ES: Well, it certainly has become the descriptor du jour. I think the problem is that people tend to see in missional what they want to see. If they want to see the church do more social justice, that's "missional." If they want to be more evangelistic, that's "missional." But I still think there's a power in a new or modified word that enables us to say, "We do need something different." I think missional has become a descriptor -- an imperfect one -- of the shift we might need in evangelicalism.

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BM: Why is the missional movement happening now? What brought it on?

ES: Recently the New York Times quoted me referring to the "modern evangelical machine." And I think there's some discomfort with the modern evangelical machine that has produced a catered, franchise, packaged Christianity that is pretty neat and freeze-dried. I think people are looking for something that is more transformational, more organic, and missional has become that which people rally to. There are other people using other words -- like "externally focused" -- which are describing similar ideas. So the question is: Does the word "missional" have enough redefining influence to help us think more biblically about the church, or will the word become a distraction? As of yet, I don't think it has become more problematic than it is helpful. I think it's still helpful.

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BM: So the core purpose and idea of mission is good, but there have been some unintended consequences?

ES: I think every movement has unintended consequences. The unintended consequence of the church-growth movement was that we taught churches how to meet consumers' needs, and perhaps an unintended consequence of the missional movement will be that we will deemphasize some things we need to emphasize, like sharing Christ and biblical orthodoxy and things like that. And I want to learn from both.

BM: What would you say are the good, positive contributions that you've already seen coming out of this missional movement?

ES: I think a move away from preference, from church being defined by the preferences of its attendees to church being more focused on how we can be a sign and instrument of the kingdom of God in this community. So I think it's a little less self-focused, which is positive. I think its forced people to think about what is the source of our mission, and that mission is an attribute of God himself. It's helped people to see their lives as part of redemptive history, on the move, as sent ones and sent churches. I think the rediscovery that the Jesus of Luke 19:10 -- who said "I come to seek and save the lost" -- is the same Jesus as in Luke 4 -- who came to pronounce freedom for the captives, sight for the blind, and caring for the poor -- is also a positive contribution.

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BM: Is "missional" necessarily anti-megachurch? Can you be a megachurch and also be missional?

ES: Depends on who you ask! I think it's harder to be missional if you're a megachurch, because the machine has to be serviced. I preach every week to a church with 9,000 members, so obviously I'm not anti-megachurch. But I like to think that the church functions like a yo-yo. There are two functions at work: sending itself out, like the centrifugal force, but also the force pulling us in, which is the organization that needs to be maintained. When you spin a yo-yo, the centripetal force pulling it in and the centrifugal force pushing it out are in equal balance. But I think the more your church has, the more you have to service it, the thicker the tether. I think many megachurches spend all their time servicing the tether and not sending it out on mission. If you have 10 people in your living room, all you have to worry about is the centrifugal, but if you have a megachurch you have to worry about the centripetal as well. So I think its harder as a megachurch.

BM: One of the criticisms about missional that Dan Kimball, among others, has pointed out recently is that there have not been new converts in the missional church. Do you think this is a concern?

ES: I do think that a church should not defend their lack of converts, but rather repent of it and resolve to change. I think that some missional churches want to defend it. I do think that conversion takes longer these days. People don't really know what "getting saved" means anymore. In a secular society, missional engagement and conversion are going to take longer, but at the end of the day, if all we have is reform but no one getting born again, then I don't think that's a better situation than what we have right now.

BM: I think another criticism that has been raised is just this balance that missional tries to strike between social justice and "living out" the gospel on one hand and the proclaiming or preaching of the gospel on the other. And you even talked about this at your talk at the American Society for Church Growth conference here at Biola. How do we balance these things?

ES: I think, ultimately, if I push on two fronts -- A and B -- and I only get resistance on B, then I've got to push harder on B. Now, from my perspective I might think they are equally important, but we have to remember this: When you speak of justice, people will praise you, but when you speak of Jesus, they'll condemn you. But we can't speak of Jesus without speaking of justice and we can't biblically speak of justice without understanding Jesus, so ultimately we will have to overcompensate in the area of evangelism because that's where there is resistance.

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BM: Do you think the missional movement might bridge the gap and divisions between, for example, the "emerging" people and the neo-Reformed crowd?

ES: Well, I don't know if it will be the great unifier, but I think we can all agree on missional -- that we need to be focused on the mission of God, not on us. I speak to a lot of pastors about missional, from Assemblies of God to Reformed, and I think that all of them more or less get it, and get why it is important.

Go and check out the whole interview (there's quite a bit more), and come back to talk about these issues. What are your thoughts?

I wrote an article for the Nov/Dec Issue of Outreach Magazine where I shared a few thoughts on preaching the gospel and living the gospel, particularly as it relates to the poor. (If you have not subscribed, click here to do so and you can read the whole issue.)

Jesus not only preached the gospel to the spiritually blind, hungry, oppressed and poor, he also demonstrated the gospel by acts of love that met the needs of those who were literally blind, hungry, oppressed and poor. There is much we can learn from Jesus here. His miracles were not simply testimonies to his divine power, but reflections of his divine love and compassion. I hope you will consider this issue with me as we enter into this holiday season. You can read the article below in its entirety.

Speaking of Jesus and Justice

Every church deals with "it." Some deal with it by referral to the agency down the street. Others find token ways to say they're dealing with it, when really they're not. Some send a few bucks overseas so someone else can deal with it. Most deal with it by not dealing with it at all. "It" is poverty. Some see it as the government's responsibility. Others hold to the historic and biblical precedent that family and the Church care for the poor. Yet, today's evangelical churches in America have often been unengaged in dealing with poverty. My own experience has underscored the truth that to be faithful to Scripture, churches must deal with it.

Out of Buffalo
My wife, Donna, and I planted our first church among the urban poor of Buffalo, N.Y. When I went there, Buffalo's population was declining by 3% per year. We bought a house for $70,000 in the middle of a crack epidemic. After spending an equivalent of $17,000 in renovations, we sold the house five years later for only$40,000 when we left Buffalo to plant another church. Our Buffalo experience showed us that it's not always easy to see people through God's eyes. The poor are poor for many reasons, not all of which are someone else's fault. Sometimes bad personal choices are involved. However, that fact doesn't give the Church license to tell people that if they really wanted to, they could get out of poverty. Instead, our job is to join Jesus on His mission to serve and care for the poor.

Talking the Walk
I must confess that I think churches talk more than they help. They brand themselves as caring for their communities through catchy slogans, yet they seem to talk more than they act. It kind of reminds me of that Brady Bunch episode in which Peter rescues a little girl from a falling shelf in Driscoll's Toy Store. The newspaper wrote about it and the TV station came out. And, you guessed it, the middle Brady son became obsessed with telling his heroic tale and couldn't stop talking about himself to his friends and family. It's no wonder no one wanted to be around the "hero." Self-congratulation is obnoxious and tiring. Likewise, I believe the world is growing tired of churches that occasionally helped the poor, took up an offering, or went on a mission trip and can't stop talking about those occasional experiences. People today find it odd that the Church founded by a Savior who came healing the sick and caring for the poor is now only marginally involved in His mission.

Jesus and Justice
In the initial thrust of His earthly ministry, Jesus announced, "The Spirit of the Lord is on me because He has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free the oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor" (Luke 4:18-19). That same Jesus, just a few chapters later, explained, "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save the lost" (Luke 19:10). If we are going to follow Jesus in His mission, we must see the biblical Jesus in both Luke 4 and Luke 19:10. When Jesus broke into history, He said He would serve the hurting. But He also came to seek and save the lost. If we are not serving the hurting, we are missing out on the Jesus of the Bible. If we are not sharing the Gospel with our lips, we are missing out on the Jesus of the Bible. Imagine the difference we could make in our communities if we not only told people that they must repent and be saved, but also loved them--talking about Jesus and acting in justice. That would be joining Jesus on His mission.