While speaking at the Together for Adoption Conference, I visited a bit with my friend with Tony Merida. The Meridas have recently adopted four children from the Ukraine and have a passion for orphan care. I always appreciate his passion for the gospel and the mission of God.

Seeing him, reminded me that Tony's new book is out and I wanted to share a bit about it through the foreword I wrote for the book. It is a short foreword, but for some reason I manage to quote a Journey song, the Fireproof movie, and Lord of the Rings.

Not sure what got into me that day... but the book is worth your time, even if my foreword might not be!

Ed Stetzer Last Service Video from Ed Stetzer on Vimeo.

Here is a video that my church showed last Sunday to look back over the last two years. My kids loved it. And, to be honest, it got to me as well. Thanks, Chad Conger, for the hours it took to put it together.

Some of the references include "inside jokes," like the "Cheese It" reference in my Financial Freedom series.

The "Cheese It" illustration was based on the idea that my daughter, Jaclyn, was convinced that there was a limited amount of Cheese Its, but as her father, I owned the Cheese Its on a thousand hills. We often think that God can't meet our needs, so we fear and hoard. When you think about your "stuff" all day, it takes over (watch for the big box) and is eventually a prison (watch for the Cheese It prison).

By the way, you can get that Financial Freedom series for free. Click here for more information.

The "weight loss" vignette was pretty neat to watch and inspired me to take the next step and run a half marathon. More information about my weight loss journey is here.

I am thinking about writing an article about "Things I Learned While Preaching at a Traditional Megachurch." I learned much. And, I will miss being there. As a contemporary church planter and pastor, I was a little anxious at the beginning, but they welcomed me and l think we learned a lot together.

I don't own a suit anymore. It is way too big. So, I only have a blazer and an untucked shirt left. But, that's seemed to be OK as long as we studied the Word and focused on the Lord!

Recently I have the privilege of speaking at the Innovate Conference, sponsored by Thomas Road and hosted by my friend Jonathan Falwell. I shared a message that was a modified version of a message I gave at my church. Since this was to pastors and church leaders, it is written and communicated that way.

The video and notes are below. If it is helpful to you, feel free to use it in any way that advances the work of the Kingdom.

"Secret Sin and Spiritual Power" from Ed Stetzer on Vimeo.

My outline:

Earlier this Spring I was preaching through a series called, "Lies We Believe." This is Part 6, and the lie is, "All the church needs is programs."

Lies We Believe: Pt. 6 from Ed Stetzer on Vimeo.

Here is a sermon I preached a couple of weeks ago at my church on living a "God-imitating life."

This week, the pastor search committee of my church announced that they have a candidate. Assuming that goes ahead, I will be finishing up as "interim Teaching Pastor" there in early August. It is a great church and I will miss delivering my messages there. But, I am, after all, an "interim" and eventually that comes to an end.

Here are some pics of the church from a recent blog post (see that post here).

So, that leaves me one message before the new pastor comes "in view of a call."

I should probably explain what "in view of a call" means. It is a common expression in low church evangelical circles where churches vote on the man who may serve as their pastor. For some of you, this will make you a little nervous. You want some elders to make that appointment-- after all, they know better.

Well, let me explain how it works in low church evangelicalism.

First, before the church really starts looking for a pastor they establish a Pastor Search Committee. (At this church it is called a "Pastor Selection Committee," a term that makes it a little confusing since they don't actually "select" but rather "nominate.") The Pastor Search Committee is elected by the church and does the hard work of finding a pastoral candidate whose gifts and personality will best serve the body.

Second, the PSC starts working by consulting other leaders and pastors, listening to on-line messages, listening to the church family through surveys and listening sessions, visiting churches, and contacting potential pastors. In a church like ours (with about 8000 members) that takes a while. For example, the PSC had over 50 listening sessions with church members.

Third, the PSC prays a lot and seeks to discern whom to ask to be considered. Once they are in agreement they approach that person.

Fourth, that person, after much prayer and examining the church, eventually agrees to be nominated by the PSC to the church (which happened this week).

Fifth, If the church votes "yes," the pastor then comes "in view of a call." In other words, they come to preach with the intent ("in view of") being called as the pastor.

But, for you non-congregationalists out there (who need Bibles, grin), the church actually votes to call the pastor. After the vote (which usually has to be 75%) the candidate is then informed of the results and agrees to come (or not). Then, the nominee is no longer a nominee and informs his church that he is leaving to pastor another church.

Then, the interim packs up his books and gets out of the way. ;-)

That will leave me with three or four messages after he accepts that call but before he comes and starts as pastor. I need time to pack up those books, after all. ;-)

So, my question for you is this: what should I preach on for this Sunday and then for the next several? Any suggestions? I can work through a text or share a series of texts, but I am very open to suggestions and believe that in many counselors there is wisdom.

First, what should I speak on NEXT week, July 5-- the week before he comes in view of a call. (I am out on July 12th and my friend and co-author Philip Nation is speaking that day.)

Second, what should I preach on after (and assuming) the church calls and he accepts on July 19th. The congregation votes that evening and, assuming the vote is positive, he is then to start his transition and i will bring several more messages. So, what can I preach on pointing to the new pastor.

Jump into the comments and share your thoughts.

My new article went up at Sermon Central. I have the privilege of serving on the advisory council for Sermon Central and am always appreciative when they publish our research or writings.

Check it out below and share your thoughts in the comments.

How Do You Handle the Word of God?

Recently I had the opportunity to travel to Europe to speak to pastors, missionaries, and church leaders. Europe is one of the most difficult and often discouraging ministry contexts in the world. Yet, the trip was incredible. Along the way, I met courageous men and women who were faithful to Jesus and his Great Commission within a culture that largely rejects their faith.

I visited worship services there and on four other continents. In every worship service I visited, no matter what country I was in, I had a simple expectation: the preacher would use the Bible in the sermon. God's Word is certainly (at least some) part of the vast majority of Christian sermons. If a Christian preacher doesn't use the Bible in the sermon, in fact, I'd be hard-pressed to call it Christian preaching.

But that's where the sermon similarities end. Pastors handle God's Word in many different ways depending upon their ministry context. In some ways, this variety can actually be good; after all, preachers are charged to preach the Word to a particular audience. Jesus himself taught in different ways at different times in his ministry. When he preached to the religious leaders of his day, he preached forcefully. In the Sermon on the Mount, he preached to his core group, the disciples, and he challenged them to go deeper. To the crowds, he preached differently still. So preachers who preach differently in different contexts should not surprise us.

At LifeWay Research, we recently studied the variety of ways pastors use the Bible by looking at 450 different sermons (all by different preachers). We gave our research team the audio files of these sermons and some objective questions about how the preacher handled God's Word.

Thus, let me share about the research and my views on preaching at the same time. Later, we will release a standard report; in the meantime, let me share some of the results.

First, a bit about our methodology. The sermons were randomly selected from two prominent online audio sermon sources. The dates the sermons were preached fell between August 31 and September 14, 2008. A percentage of sermons were even checked a second time to verify and confirm that the research team was accurately reviewing the material.

Our sample certainly impacted the results of our study (which is why we reveal the sample source). We know that those who upload their sermons to online sites are different than those who do not. Are they younger, more evangelical, better educated, and more computer literate? We do not know for sure. But this is not an analysis of ALL preachers, only of the sample described.

Sure enough, in these 450 sermons, the preachers handled God's Word differently. The way pastors organized their sermons varied widely. Half of pastors traveled verse-by-verse through a passage, and almost half organized their sermons around a theme. Almost one out of five pastors named and explained a Greek word in their sermon. More than half explained verses by using other verses in the Bible.

Even though different preachers handle the Word differently, I believe they're all obligated to teach it as authoritative, not merely as a scriptural footnote proving something they already wanted to say. Four things have to be true about a pastor's handling of the Bible if that pastor is to preach authoritatively.

1. The Word should be heard

Our central task as preachers is to present God's Word. Paul asked a series of questions that should haunt all of us who preach: "How can they call on him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe without hearing about him? And how can they hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:14 HCSB) A preacher isn't a self-help guru. A preacher is not a political activist or an entertainer. Those who preach are truth-dispensers, proclaimers of the Word. If we don't do our job as preachers, people will not hear the good news and therefore can't respond to it. What we do is crucial.

At a surprisingly high level, most of the preachers we studied seemed to understand the need for the text. Four out of five of these sermons conveyed the correct meaning of the chosen text according to our research team's analysis (which was not denominationally specific). I'm encouraged by this. People will not really hear God's Word in our churches if we're not preaching it accurately.

Of course you can preach the Word accurately and still no one will really "hear" it; we must share God's Word in the way our hearers will understand it. No matter how accurately the Bible is preached, our message can get lost behind jargon and phrases that mean nothing to our congregations. This doesn't mean that we should gloss over difficult words within scripture. But we do need to explain the original language and "churchy" words we use. Words we only hear in church such as "holy," "righteousness," and "propitiation" can help hearers understand God's truth only if properly clarified.

Many of the preachers we studied did this. In fact, 41 percent explained at least one church or theological word during their sermon. Another 21 percent avoided such words altogether. This means more than half of the preachers we studied either avoided or at least explained some of the church or theological words they used. While this is notable, it still means that one out of three preachers are not speaking in the vernacular of their audience at least if the uninitiated or unchurched are in attendance.

Paul could have just asked, "How can they believe without a preacher?" But he didn't. Without people hearing really hearing what you say they will not believe the message.

2. The Word should be organized

If God is orderly, and the story of creation suggests he is, then the preaching of his Word should be, as well. Having a good sermon structure matters as listeners try to make sense of your message.

A good sermon structure simply allows your listeners to more easily grab upon truth. It's like a well-organized toolbox: If you know where everything in your toolbox is located, you can go find a tool even when your lights are out. Why? You know where everything is. A good sermon structure can do the same thing. If you've organized your sermon well, your listeners will be able to understand the Word more easily even when you're dealing with difficult subjects.

But different people and different cultures think differently and organize their thoughts differently. Not everyone looks for their tools in the same places. Your task as the preacher is to know how your listeners organize their thoughts and to organize your sermon likewise. (And you should note that our sample was in English, which limited the cultural diversity of our study group.) As we studied these 450 sermons, we saw three main categories of biblical preaching. Each category pointed to an important element in biblical sermons.

Half of these preachers focused their preaching around one block of scripture text, moving verse-by-verse through the passage. In truth, every sermon should strive to explain scripture. If the sermon fails to do so, it's hard to say the Word is central to it.

Another 46 percent of preachers focused their preaching around a main theme, question, or topic using multiple Scriptures to support it. Themes may address issues that listeners deal with throughout their life, or they might highlight a biblical principle or doctrine that should impact the listener's thinking. Again, this method effectively helps listeners apply the Word to their lives, no matter what organizational method they use.

Finally, the other 4 percent organized their message around one main biblical character using multiple Scriptures to support the theme. This demonstrates the necessity of personalizing biblical truth letting listeners see the truth lived out in someone else's life. (Wayne Cordeiro does a helpful job unpacking this approach to scripture in his book, The Divine Mentor.)

All of these examples are appropriate ways to structure a sermon depending upon your audience, and all point to essential elements in a good sermon.

3. The Word should be sufficient

Preachers today can be tempted to use all sorts of extra-biblical resources to make their sermons more interesting to the unchurched. Much of those efforts are good: For example, a movie clip may make a nice illustration. A quote from popular culture may show listeners the relevance of what you're teaching. What a commentator says about a verse may help explain the scripture better.

But, the best way to explain scripture is with scripture itself. Sometimes it isn't the most convenient place for us to go, but the Bible is simply far better equipped to explain itself than popular culture. More than half of the sermons we studied (56 percent) used cross-references to explain the Word.

I am not saying that cross-references are the only way to help us explain the Word. In many of the sermons we studied (just under half), the preacher gave contextual background information on the biblical book being studied to help listeners understand the text's meaning. About four out of ten preachers explained their text by talking about its context or what came immediately before and after the passage. Almost one in five preachers gave little to no background information to help explain the texts they preached upon.

4. The Word should be useful

God's Word should make a difference in the lives of our listeners. When God's Word is preached boldly and authoritatively, people change. Paul told Timothy, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16, HCSB)

Paul says God's Word is useful (or profitable) to equip us to do his work. In fact, he says all of God's Word is useful for this this includes Leviticus, Amos, and the lineage of Jesus. He doesn't give any exceptions.

The preachers we surveyed had a definite preference for the New Testament. Nearly three quarters (71 percent) of the main biblical texts were found in the New Testament. More than a third (37 percent) of the sermons came from the New Testament letters alone. A quarter came from the Gospels.

When preachers flipped through their New Testament looking for a passage to preach upon, they didn't flip far. Matthew was the most preached-upon and the most referenced book in the entire Bible. Genesis was the most preached-upon Old Testament book. Luke, John, Acts of the Apostles, and Romans all from the New Testament were the other most likely biblical books for preachers to use as a main text.

Every book, every page of the Bible is useful to make us more like Christ and prepare us for ministry, not just our favorite books or pages. In fact, an important part of authoritative, biblical preaching is helping listeners discover "the whole counsel of God." (Acts 20:27) This means we have to flip further into our Bibles if we're going to be completely obedient to our call.

How we handle the Word of God matters. As preachers, we have a limited time with our audience every week. The question is, how will we use that time? Will we handle the Word of God in a way that demonstrates its authority in our lives and over the lives of our listeners?

How important is this issue? God's Word is bread to a spiritually lost and hungry culture. The issue is urgent. Here is my challenge: Over the next 90 days, take action steps to make your sermons more biblically relevant. The following steps will help you get started:

1. Listen to one of your recent sermons and assess how you handled the Bible (start by listening for how your sermon addressed the four points in this article).
2. Have someone you trust (maybe from outside your church) listen to a different one of your sermons and do the same assessment.
3. Read some books on preaching, like Christ-Centered Preaching by Bryan Chappel or The Divine Mentor by Wayne Cordiero, to help your personal approach to God's Word.
4. Create a list of clear and measurable goals to strengthen the biblical content of your preaching.

My prayer is that God would do something new and deeper in all of us who have the honor of communicating his life-changing truth. May every man, woman, and child in every community truly see and hear his Word as a result. It's really the most important concern we can address as we prepare to preach.

Jump into the comments below and leave your thoughts.

As I mentioned yesterday, we are adding more video here at the blog. Here is my last message from my church. I working through Ephesians 4:17-32 with a particular emphasis on the difference between the gospel and moralism:

Living Life - Ed Stetzer from Ed Stetzer on Vimeo.

If you are interested in listening to my weekly messages, you can do so here and they are also at iTunes.

One of the things you will see in the coming days is a concerted effort to add more video and audio content here at the blog.

To start, here is my message at the Advance09 conference in Durham, NC.

Here is the panel of which I was part.

You can download all of the messages here.

* Update: Now the audio from a Q & A session between Piper, Driscoll, Greear and me is up. See bottom of post for link. *

Advance 09 was a great gathering that centered around the gospel, Jesus' church and mission. For those who couldn't make it here's the audio. I'm including some photos from the conference taken by Gabriel Boone. Be sure to check out the rest of photos on flickr.

Mark Driscoll - "What Is the Church?"
Mark Driscoll - "Ministry Idolatry"

John Piper - "Let the Nations Be Glad, Part 1"
John Piper - "Let the Nations Be Glad, Part 2"

Ed Stetzer - "Keys to Understanding the Church and Kingdom"

Matt Chandler - "Preaching the Gospel to the De-churched"

Tyler Jones - "The Resurgence of the Church"

Bryan Chappell - "Communicating the Gospel Through Preaching"

J. D. Greear - "Planting Is for Wimps: Revitalizing a Church Around the Gospel"

Eric Mason - "The Ultimate Shepherd"

Danny Akin - "Marks of a Healthy Community of Faith"

Chandler, Driscoll, and Chappell - Q&A Session

* Piper, Driscoll, Greear, and Stetzer - Q&A Session

This week I'm teaching a D. Min. class, "Practical and Strategic Issues in Missions, Evangelism and Church Growth" at Southeastern Seminary, and later this week Advance 09 is going down. So, while my attention is very much focused on the people and events surrounding me I have not forgetten that you - my thoughtful and patient readers - are waiting for the last part of my interview with Andy Stanley to drop. Well, here it is!
 

We pick up where we left off, talking about Andy's thoughts on preaching and his approach of preaching one-point messages and how he brings the listener to the Biblical text. We also talk a bit about is views of verse-by-verse preaching and how to help people see why the scriptures matter.

Feel free to interact in the comments.  Also, many of you have mentioned how helpful Andy's and Lane Jones book, Communicating for Change, has been. I told Andy that our last interview made his book an Amazon best-seller for a week. ;-)  Let me encourage you to get it and learn why Andy is such an effective communicator.

Ed: I recently interviewed Craig Groeschel and he made a point that younger adults seem to want to go deeper than the boomers did... Have you noticed any shift? You've been at this for a long time at North Point (and before). Have you noticed any shift in the way that believers and the unchurched have responded to preaching?

 

Andy: I would agree with Craig only because I keep hearing people I respect say that. But I can't draw from any personal experience to say, if you mean by "deeper," that people have a longing for "keep me in the book of Romans for four months." I think that is an expression, but I do think there's a spiritual hunger. I think there is a wonderful hunger for the Scriptures, especially the gospels right now... Generation to generation switches from Paul to Jesus, Paul to Jesus, Paul to Jesus, and if you've been around long enough, you see that it goes back and forth. But, I think there's a huge hunger for Scripture and what does the Bible say, and for people who do what we do, that's a great thing.

Ed: One of the points that you have made is the need to help the audience, the listener, the people to see why this scripture "matters." Why is that so important? How do you do it to help people to see this matters?

 

Andy: I think the best way to understand that is to think about a father with his or a mother with her children. There are things as a parent that I know are extremely important for my kids to know. The problem is my kids don't know they're extremely important for my kids to know. So, for my kids to take my advice or instruction seriously, I have to do a little pre-work to help them understand the gravity of what I'm about to say. Well, the same is true when we open the Scripture with new believers, nonbelievers, or people who have been a Christian a long time, but you're about to present them with something you think, "this is a must have," a "must-understand" truth. But if we don't help people understand why it's so important before we lay it out, it just becomes more information.

As a parent, I have to do that when I really want my kids to embrace the truth or embrace an idea. The new craze right now among teenagers is texting, and so the other day I have a conversation with my two boys about texting inappropriate pictures and all that sort of stuff. Well, as I began the conversation, I began by talking about what's happening to kids who are caught. It's messing up their lives and being associated with this follows them for the rest of their life. So, I began with that before I talked to them about, have they heard of this or are kids doing this. So, again, I had to create some emotion around the topic. It would have, it's almost a waste of time to say, "Hey kids, don't do that. The end."

Well, I think with preaching, as we approach the platform or as we open God's Word, I want people to be hungry for what I'm about to say. The emotion we create at the beginning of a message causes people to "lean in" and causes people to want to take seriously what we're about to say. So, when I sit through a message or listen to a message where it's, "Hey, last week we ended at Romans 4:8. Today we pick up at verse nine," and they just jump in, I'm like, "Wait, wait, wait, wait. Make me want this."

Now, as a mature believer, I want it because it's in the Bible, but I'm kind of glad I didn't bring my three unchurched friends because you haven't made them want this. Simply saying it's in the Bible isn't enough.

It depends a little bit on the audience, but I think for all of us, we need to look at our audience like we're shepherds or we're parents and they're children, and there's all these biblical metaphors, and so consequently, to be good stewards of their time, to be good stewards of their spiritual life, I think we need to do the difficult task and the difficult work of creating some desire or some appetite for what we're about to say.

 

Ed: I wrote an article on this topic in Preaching Magazine called "Contextual Preaching."  I basically encouraged people to begin the message in a way that connects with your audience.  Some objected to it.  Some said, "Well, you just need to trust the Holy Spirit." I believe I trust the Holy Spirit. But I think there's a sense that some people think, "Well, we don't need to even worry about those things."

 

Andy: Well, they just need to read the parables. Why would Jesus bother telling a story? He shoulda' just told 'em the truth. Why spend all the time talking about a son and his father. The son runs off. Why don't you just say, "Look, God's the Father and God will take you back if you run off." Let's move on.

I think this is one of the reasons there was some kind of semi-controversy around our conversation last time, I made the point that verse-by-verse preaching is kind of cheating. And my point was, from my perspective, it's easier to do that than to do what I do and what people who do what I do in terms of spending lots of time trying to create a context for Biblical truth. And I didn't mean, obviously, cheating like they were doing something wrong. What I really meant to say was I think it's easier. And honestly, as I work through books of the Bible in my private devotional life, there are so many times, Ed, I think, "Gosh, I wish I could just go in next Sunday and say, 'Okay, here's what I read this week and here's what I got out of it.'" It would just be so much easier and so much simpler, but then I think, you know what? For people who are where I am, for people who just can't get enough of God's Word, that would work, but for the audience I'm trying to reach, I'm going to have to create some sorta creative environment... I'm going to have to create a hunger. And that's difficult. That just takes a lot of time.

Ed: There are people out there who are convictional verse-by-verse preachers. I preach that way a majority of the time. Let's say we're going work through a text.  As you said earlier, we're going to stop at Romans 4:8 and then go to Romans 4:9. How can we help when we begin that conversation at Romans 4:9 for people to engage and to see this as important? Just go up and say, "The Bible says it. Let's go." Or is there something more we can and should do?

 

Andy: Well, I think the good news there is there are many who teach who do a great job at what you're suggesting, and that is: the introduction is everything. The introduction is designed to make me want to listen to what you're about to say. So, the question is always: what can I say up front to make my audience interested or more interested in what I'm about to say?

There's a group of people that as soon as you open the Bible, they're interested. But there's a group of people that as soon as you open the Bible, they're going to suspect anything you say. So, I think it's looking within culture; trying to unearth the tension. That's something I talk a lot about in the book. What is the tension that this text addresses? And the more tension I can create up front, the more interested people are going be in what I have to say. That's just true of general conversation. This is why anybody who listens to the news or listens to the radio or television, what are those news readers do right before they sign off for a commercial? They say, "In a minute we're going to find out why blah, blah, blah, blah, blah," and you go, "Gosh, well, I need to stay on this station 'til they come back." Well, they've just created interest in what they are about to say.

I think good communicators do that intuitively and I think as communicators of God's Word, it's to our advantage to create that kind of interest. I think a person who's preaching chapter-by-chapter through the Bible can do that. I think it's a little more challenging because, obviously, God didn't ordain the chapters and the verses. That was added later, but we find ourselves locked into that.

Ed: Who do you listen, other communicators, preachers, teachers out there, and how do they influence you?

 

Andy: The group I listen to the most, we have probably 12 communicators at our three campuses here in Atlanta combined with our pastoral staff and our student communicators, and I listen to just about everything they do primarily because I feel like I need to be in a coaching role. So, that takes a lot of my listening time, which I enjoy. I listen to Craig; I listen to Perry Noble; I listen to Ed Young; I listen to Joel Osteen. I think there's so much we can learn as communicators from Joel, and, obviously, he gets criticized a lot for a lot of things, but you don't learn anything if you put on your critique hat. You have to become a student before you're a critic. So, I listen to Joel. I listen to my dad, for various reasons, but those are probably the people that I am more intentional about tuning into the most.

Ed: What advice would you give to communicators, preachers of all different kinds about how they might effectively communicate God's Word to their congregations?

Andy: I think we have to create in our schedules the time we need to study.. The more talented the person is, obviously, the more tendency they're going to have to wing it or to just lean hard on their personality or their ability just to be interesting. I think we just have to study. It's difficult. I mean, for me, the better somebody is, that means the easier they make it look, and so the tendency is to think, "Well, they don't spend a lot of time. That just seemed so easy to them." But, when you watch a professional tennis player, you think, "Gosh, I can get out there and just whack the ball over the net like that." Well, the reason they make it look so easy is because they work so hard at it.

I just think a big part of this is just making sure in our schedules we have carved out our best time to do our best work to prepare for our most important jobs which is to open God's Word and say, "Here's what God has said. Here's what we've gotta do. Here's what we need to know." So, I think a lot of this just goes back to every individual communicator finding their sweet spot in terms of studying, preparation, and being prepared for Sunday or Wednesday or Tuesday or whenever it is that they have the opportunity to stand up in front of their audience.

Thanks, Andy, for taking the time and sharing your insights!

Feel free to interact in the comments.  For those of you who are verse-by-verse preachers by conviction, how do you help people engaged the text as you start you message?  Do you just assume that, or do you (as Andy suggests) seek to create tension.  If so, how?

For those of you who preach topically, how to you make certain that you are preaching the scripture and not just your opinions with the Bible as spiritual footnotes?

Back in March I posted a multi-part interview with Andy Stanley that focused on communication. That exchange generated a lot of conversation. Some of you helped to make the conversation profitable, and a few of you... well, not so much. Well, just after this past Easter I spoke with Andy again, this time for an interview to talk more about the issues of preaching and communication. Here is that conversation in two parts. I look forward to healthy, charitable dialog in the comments.

Ed:I had the privilege a few months ago to be visiting there at the church which kind of prompted me to begin this blog series... When you're preaching and when you're communicating, what is the goal that you have for the listener? What do you want them do, be, act, or change as you communicate with them?

Andy: Well, actually I think the list that you just gave me is the goal and I think it depends on the kind of sermon. And so, I think every communicator needs to step up to wherever he or she's communicating with a specific goal, and sometimes it is "I want them to know something," sometimes it is "I want them to do something," sometimes it is "I want them to change something." So, in 35 or 40 minutes of a lot of words coming out of my mouth, in my mind, there's always a specific goal. This past Sunday for us was Easter and I wanted our congregation to understand something. It wasn't an application sermon. It wasn't even a "here's something you've never thought of before" sermon. It was a "I want you to understand something" But I think that's going to shift with the topic and shift with whatever series a communicator's in. That's a good question.

Ed: You and Layne Jones coauthored the book, Communicating for a Change, and many people have found it very helpful. What do you think are some elements that pastors and communicators who are doing messages, what do they need to bring to the message so that people can experience or be motivated to experience that change?

Andy: I think a big part of it is passion. And I coach our communicators. Every week I'm in some sort of coaching environment with our communicators on staff, and one of the things I say to them frequently is I say, "Look, you've gotta imagine there's a 21-year-old guy that's sittin' two/thirds of the way back and he's givin' church one more shot. What, where in your message is the passion to reach out and grab that guy by the throat and say, 'You can't leave here without hearing or doing or understanding.'" And so, when it comes to change, I think it's one thing to look at our outlines and our, whatever script we have in front of us.

That's one thing, but I think we have to step up there with somebody in mind or a type of person in mind because, for me, that's what I think fuels me to communicate for change or to communicate for a life change or to communicate to understand something that's never been understood before. And in my world - and you've been around me enough to know - every once in a while, I pull my stool out to the front of the stage and just it on it as close to the edge of the stage I can and lean as far as I can into the audience, and that's sorta my visual way of saying, "Okay, look, if you forget everything else you've heard today, you got to know this one thing, you gotta hear this one thing." And I think from the stage, that's the compelling change part. Here's what's gotta change.

Ed:When you communicate, you're known and have really promoted and encouraged people to consider that one-point approach to really make it simple, make it clear, make it compelling. Why is that? Why one-point? Because many of us were taught to have these three points, four points. Why have you narrowed the focus down to one thing?

Andy: You know it's interesting, and I'll answer the question directly, but actually at Dallas Seminary, we studied Haddon Robinson's book on preaching which all of us have been exposed to or was a textbook, and the thing is, Haddon taught us to preach one-point messages. I mean, if you look at biblical preaching or you look at his text, he teaches "What's the one thing?" The problem is: nobody did it. Even when I was in seminary and we were using that book as a textbook, even in class, nobody drove us to, "Hey, what's your one thing?" So, I feel like I'm doing what I was taught to do in seminary because I felt like that was the model. But the thing I think - and I shared this in book - the thing that really turned a page for me was, when I was in seminary, I was invited to teach a chapel for a Christian high school and I had this really amazing message I thought, and that morning when I got, or actually it was the night before, as I was lookin' over my notes, I thought, "You know what? They don't care about any of this." I've got all this stuff and all this content. They're seniors and juniors and sophomores in high school. They have chapel every week. They don't care. And they're not gonna remember any of this. And I just felt compelled to say, "Okay, if they're only gonna remember one thing, which they probably won't remember anything, but if they're gonna remember one thing, what do I want it to be?" And I rewrote my whole message towards that one thing. And that was a defining moment for me in terms of preparation and communication and I've just sorta stuck with it since then.

Ed: How do you keep from just making up statements or points, finding scriptural footnotes to kinda make a predetermined point?

Andy: Well, for me, I really, really, really want the text to speak for itself. And there have been so many times I've gone into my preparation with an idea in mind, come out on the other end with a completely different idea, and I really to the best of my ability, I want the text to speak. And I think once we've done our due diligence in terms of really, really, really doin' our textual work, using the languages, usin' the helps, whatever a man or woman or uses to prepare, I think from that, that' where we ask the question, "Okay, what's the thing the author is tryin' to communicate? What's the thing God was tryin' to illustrate through this story? What's the idea that comes out of this narrative?" So, I really think it's all in the text, but it just takes a long time sometimes to get there. And as I've told our staff and I tell my wife frequently, sometimes it's really not until Saturday night or even sometimes Sunday morning when it finally dawns on me, this is the thing that I've gotta carry with me to the platform today. So, it's hard work, for me anyway.

Ed: Well, like you said, "I want the text to speak for itself." What do you say to people that say, "Well, Andy, if you want the Text to speak for itself, just work through it verse by verse"? What are the advantages and disadvantages of that, and how do you come down there?

Andy: Well, I think anyone who listens, not to a sermon I've preached, but anyone who listens to a bunch of sermons I preach know that I, my favorite thing is to take a passage and to work through a passage word by word, verse by verse. I love to do that. That's what I was trained to do. So, I think on any given Sunday, I preach exegetically. What I don't do is pick up where I left off last week with the very next verse. Now, I've done that through the book of Jonah, done that to the book of Nehemiah, but typically, we're picking a topic, and then I'm picking passages that I think speak to that topic, and then I'm exegeting those passages.

I think preaching verse-by-verse through books of the Bible is a fun thing to do. I love listening to that kind of teaching. That's actually how I do my quiet times. My quiet time is verse by verse, take as long as I need to to work through a book of the Bible and write down insights and observations, but in terms of what happens on a Sunday morning, as I'm lookin' at my audience and as I look at the Text, even the writers of the Text don't give equal weight to everything, and verses, I mean, and these books of the Bible, especially the epistles, were written to be read holistically.

I think when I get to heaven, Paul is gonna say, "Wow, you found a whole lot more in there than I originally said because I meant for somebody to stand up and read the whole book of Ephesians at one time to the local church, and gosh, you spent six weeks pickin' through there." So, I think sometimes, if we're not careful, we miss what the author's trying to say because we spend so much time on three or four sentences that the author said as they made their entire argument. And honestly, I think that's a little dangerous, and I think both of us would agree and everybody listening to your podcast would agree, we have heard preachers and communicators make more of Text than the author originally intended because they decided, "I'm only gonna cover these five verses or these six verses this particular Sunday." And I think we can actually miss the message of the author doing that sometimes.

But I do wanna say, I don't think it's a wrong way to preach or an inadequate way to preach. And obviously, John McArthur and others have made a career and have built very, very mature believers and very strong churches around working through books of the Bible over and over. So there's, it's just a preference thing I guess.
And there seems to be a bit of resurgence of that.

Part 2b will drop later in the week. In the mean time jump into the meta and share your thoughts and practices concerning preaching in ways that connect the truth to the people God has sent you to.

In the final part of our interview with Andy Stanley he gives some advice to young pastors related to the responsibility of preaching.

In case you missed them, here are parts one, two, three, and four.

I am glad to hear so many of you mention that you ordered Andy's book, Communicating for a Change. If you have not done so, I recommend you do so.

Here is a bit more from our interview and a some additional information from Preaching Magazine.

Question: If you had to give one word to young pastors about communication, what would you tell them?

Andy: Show up every Sunday morning with a burden that is so heavy that you feel like you will die if you don't deliver it. And pray for that. Because if you don't have that, then you just have information. The people will put up with all kinds of a lack of excellence if there is an intensity and a burden that has to be delivered. And many times I have looked at my notes and thought, "Yeah, this might be helpful, but God, what's the thing I can't wait until Sunday morning to deliver? And I honestly can't wait for Sunday morning.

The other thing I always tell pastors, "If you preach from your weaknesses, you will never run out of sermon material."

In an interview with Preaching Magazine, Andy was asked a similar question: "Are there some things you've learned about preaching that you wished you'd known years ago?"1 Two parts of his reply really struck a chord. The first part had to do with how he structured his messages; the second dealt with how he planned his message series. As for how Andy structures his messages, this is what he said:

In terms of how I structure messages and memorize them, what I finally figured out is that there's basically three or four, maybe five parts to every message. What it took me years to learn is this: if I'll just get those in my mind and understand my transitions, I can forget the details. And I am far more free to communicate rather than try to remember something... And so in terms of memorizing sermons, I figured out there are only three or four big chunks and when I can mentally go through the big pieces, then I am ready. It took me awhile to figure that out. This helped my memorization and my communication style tremendously. I became far more conversational. I also discovered it's about a journey and it's about one thing, not four things.2

As for how he plans his messages, Andy described it this way:

All of our series planning begins with a team of people and me just throwing things up on the board and at every level of preparation bringing people into the process and saying, "What do you think about this? Does this make sense?" The average person gives me all the credit for that wonderfully delivered message, but it had a lot of hands in it...I think the whole team approach to series planning is helpful. My best visual aids weren't my ideas but when you get a group of people thinking, they all have a gift. So I wish I'd done that earlier. It takes the creative pressure off sometimes. I'll have other people out there thinking about it while I'm in here working on the details.3

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1 "Preaching Without Fear," Preaching 20 (July-August 2004): 32.
2 Ibid, 32-33.
3 Ibid, 33.

In part four of our interview with Andy Stanley he shares his thoughts on the "hard work" of preaching and improvement - including the painful process of personal review and evaluation. In case you missed them, here are parts one, two, and three. Be sure to get a copy of Andy's book, Communicating for a Change.

Question: Andy, you make preaching look so easy. How hard do you work at being an effective communicator?

Andy: I listen to my own CD's all the time. In fact, on some Sundays I listen to all three services. And I want to get better and better, and I work on getting better. I listen for dumb habits that I have. I sometimes watch my own videos, which is horrible. That will either make you better or want to get out of ministry completely. I think I make it look easy, but it's not. I work very, very hard.

And every sermon I think, "What if this is it? What if this is the last time I preach?" And I psych myself up with that thought every single week. I want it to be the best sermon that has ever been preached by anyone anywhere. That is an unattainable goal and nobody cares. No one is giving out awards for that. But I just feel that all these people that got up and fought traffic and they got their kids here and they found a seat...I need to give them something that makes it worth all that. Why anyone would want to come to our 10:30 a.m. service? You must be starving. People are going to go through all that, and they are going to bring unchurched friends. They need to go home with something, just one simple thing. And I don't think I am successful every single time, but it is the goal every single time.

I ask our communicators all the time, "What is the one thing they've got to know? They may have three pages of notes, but what is the one sentence, idea, or phrase they have got to know? That's the thing. That's the take-away." So preaching with that kind of burden, bringing that kind of burden to the communication process is huge.

What do you do to continue to refine and improve your preaching?

I have a lot to share with you about upcoming seminars and conferences. Dates, places topics - and even a way to save you some money!

March 15, 2009
After services tomorrow, I'm speaking to the Georgia Tech (Atlanta, GA) campus ministry students who are coming up to Nashville for church in the morning. Should be good.
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March 17, 2009
Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary Spring 2009 LifeWay Conference (Wake Forest, NC)

Thom Rainer and I have switched chapel days so you might be surprised to see me there on Tuesday and Thom will be there on Wednesday.
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March 19, 2009
Protestant Church Owned Publishing Association Spring Conference I will be speaking on "Protestant Pastor's Today" at the annual meeting in Nashville, TN.
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March 23-27, 2009
Starting next Monday I will be teaching for a D.Min. class on "Entering the Missional Conversation" at Biblical Seminary (Hatfield, PA)
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I have mentioned the Exponential Conference before. While I am there we are planning a special dinner on Monday night. Here are the details:

Dinner and Dialog with Hirsch and Stetzer (April 20)
Let me give you a "heads up" about a couple events in the Orlando area in April around the Exponential Conference.

What if Alan Hirsch and I were starting a church together?
What would it look like?
What strategic considerations would we talk about?

Here's the blurb:

On Monday, April 20, at 6:30 pm in Orlando The Upstream Collective along with Christian Associates International will host Alan and Ed, who are among today's leading missional thinkers and church planters. Join them in a conversation about what church planting could look like in North America, what values a church planting team might espouse, what attractional and/or missional elements it might employ and more.

We have a limited amount of seats available. Tickets are 10.00 at the door and that helps cover the cost of the dinner that will be hosted by Houseblend Café in Orlando.

If you want to reserve your spot go to www.theupstreamcollective.org to sign up.

Also on Wednesday, April 22, at 6:30 pm The Upstream Collective will hosting a dinner with Derek Webster, a church planting strategist for Scandinavia. He will talk about some unique opportunities for North American churches to get involved in what God is doing in Scandinavia. You might be surprised to hear about the ways your church could be a perfect fit for this region of the world!

You can sign up for either or both of these upcoming dinner events online at www.theupstreamcollective.org until April 12.

May 12-13, 2009
And, if you are pastoring in a small town, you might want to check out "The Sticks," a conference for pastors and leaders in small towns. Their early bird registration is about to end. I will be at the SE regional conference along with Perry Noble, Tony Morgan, Gary Lamb, etc.

I have really enjoyed thinking through Andy's answers to the questions posted so far, and today's post, part 3 of our interview, is no exception. Here Andy talks about part of his process for preparing messages to be sure that the congregation "gets" it. In other words, this helps explain how he brings the listener to the text to find the answers.

His "Me--We--God--You--Us" is more fully developed in his book (published after our interview), Communicating for a Change. Let me encourage you to get a copy.

Andy shares his approach to sermon structure, basic preparation and keeping the message focused. If you are a preacher, you have your process and it hopefully works for you in your context, but we all need to continue to refine different elements of our processes.

Andy and I talked by phone last night and I continue to be encouraged by his passion for communication and his humility. After I post the fifth of these blog posts, we will do a final wrap up together as well. I look forward to that.

Here is the interview:

Question: What is your process?

Andy: At a recent "Grow Up Conference," I diagrammed my communication process as: Me--We--God--You--Us. The communication starts with Me-- let me tell you something about me. Then We, this is something we all have in common. Then God, this is what God says about it. You, this is what you need to do about it. And We, wouldn't it be great if we all did it. So it is a relational outline. Start with you. Connect to them. What does God have to say about this issue? What should you do about it? And what should we do about it?

So I talked structurally about what you hang on each of those pieces. You outline your communication relationally, and not just in terms of information. And it is so much easier. When guys bring their sermon outlines to me I say, "Alright, now where do you talk about you? They need to know who you are. And if you jump to the Bible, they've got to go with you. To me, that is the journey. It is me taking you into a conversation. And we start together and then we end together. We have a common problem and we find a solution. And we are all still on the same page."

It is so simple. You can do announcements that way. You can structure an entire worship service that way.

Question: How far in advance do you prepare your sermons?

Andy: I prepare at least three weeks ahead so I don't really pick up the sermon until late Saturday afternoon. I haven't really looked at my sermons for three weeks. That is how I like to do it. I like to be way ahead. On Saturday night I pick it up, and I usually take out and take out. And simplify, simplify, simplify to where hopefully everything just says the one thing and then I am done. So I make it look easy but making it simple is hard work. I study all day on Wednesdays, and as much as I need to on Thursdays. I spend at least a day and a half on the message, plus Saturday night picking it up and changing it. Or sometimes I start over or cut it in half. Saturday nights are dreadful for me, but I have learned picking it up cold makes me look at it with fresh eyes and it is going to be better. I don't recommend that for the faint of heart because it ruins your Saturday nights. But being way ahead is wonderful. When I go home this week, the next three weeks will be in folders. So if I get sick or we have an emergency and I miss my study day, then I am only two weeks ahead.

As you dialogue around this post, let me encourage you to consider how you do what Andy describes. We believe that the scriptures are complete truth, provide the guidance that we need, and need to be applied. How do we help our people see the same thing? How do we bring them to the scriptures? Is it just "here it is-- ready or not-- come & get it" or do we need to help them to see how the scriptures apply to our life today.

I knew the interview we did with Andy Stanley was good, and that it would be helpful and provocative. That certainly makes it blog-worthy. As I posted Part 2 of the interview where Andy shares some thoughts on preaching "verse-by-verse" through books of the Bible I knew it would generate a lot of discussion. But I find myself disappointed at some of the responses.

Some agreed and thought the interview was great. Thanks for coming by and commenting. I think many disagreed in a gracious and thoughtful way. That's good as well. But, many just make their typical drive-by comments and never took the time to learn from Andy. And, having listened to much of what is called "expository preaching" today but is really running commentary, some need to listen to Andy's ideas on communication.

I am disappointed that some people cannot dialogue about issues. I am not saying that about everyone's comments, but I will tell you it is amazing how quickly some decide they cannot learn from another because they disagree. I've already blogged on this, so let me just say I believe that we have a lot to learn from each other in the church.

You may not agree with how Andy Stanly preaches. That is fine. He can handle it. He is doing just fine.

But, it appears that many in the church believe that if you're not preaching verse-by-verse it isn't biblical preaching at all. That is an unfortunate conclusion that rules out so many great preachers in throughout church history; just about everyone before John Chrysostom, and for that matter, every recorded sermon in the Bible.

Now, I have written extensively on my view of preaching, in at least three books, several magazine, etc. So, I won't rehash that here. But, a few comments may be helpful.

Yes, Andy is right, there are no verse-by-verse sermons in the Bible. Not a one. You cannot make the case that there is verse-by-verse exposition in the scripture. The Nehemiah reference and the Lukan account of Jesus "explaining the scriptures" are grasping at straws to prove a preconceived notion. It is a serious case of eisegesis and I find it incredibly ironic that those who are most passionate about Biblical exegesis are so ready to read into their Bibles something that is not there.

Look, the reason I believe in verse-by-verse, expository preaching is not because it is "in" the text, but because of what the text "is." Though I do not only preach verse-by-verse, I preach exegetical, expository, text-driven messages because the text (Scripture) is inerrant, inspired, profitable, etc. and I need to teach the Bible, not my views with the Bible as scriptural footnotes proving common sense thoughts.

I was working late last night on my next message in my Ephesians series. Why? Because I want to teach faithfully the truths of Scripture to my congregation. But, I am also working on ways to be sure they know it is important-- and Andy Stanley helps me know how to do help them see it is as important as I believe it is.

The Bible is relevant in this and every culture. We do not need to make it relevant. However, I do believe we need to help people understand that it is relevant and how to apply it to their lives. And, Andy provides great insight of that process.

But those of you who believe that verse-by-verse preaching is the only valid form of preaching need to decide if those who do not are "allowed." Will those who hold such view be attacked for holding them rather than engaged with a disagreement?

For many in the comments and at other places on the web, it seems that preaching like the early Church Fathers or Spurgeon (to cite just two examples), makes you not a "real" preacher. That is a shame.

If there is no room for the topical preacher, particularly one who seeks to bring people to the Word of God faithfully apply the word to an important issue, allowing the word of God to provide God's direction on that topic, then you have just eliminated doctrinal preaching and dismissed the historic examples of doctrinal preaching throughout the history of the church. And, you will have an incredibly difficult time partnering with people inside existing denominations and in broader evangelicalism.

And I fear that some of you will continue to isolate yourselves in a ghetto of people who say they love the word, but in many cases are not communicating it well to anyone except other believers already passionate about the doctrine you preach.

I get that Andy's comment about "cheating" is provocative (and he intended it as such), but it was not demeaning. I wish I could say the same about all of the comments about his comment. Many of you have shown scorn, rather than disagreement, and I believe you need to change the way you speak of those with whom you disagree.

Andy has written more about his view of preaching in his book, Communicating for Change, and you should read it-- a blog interview does not say everything a person believes on an certain issue. Having been reared under Charles Stanley and trained at Dallas Seminary, I think he has some awareness of how verse-by-verse teaching works.

And, I do think that Andy is on to something-- verse-by-verse preachers are sometimes cheating and can be lazy. Hear me on this. I'm not saying they aren't working hard to study and put together a sermon, but many stop there and do not push on into the even harder work of making the truth comprehensible. It's cheating to develop a sermon only well enough to be understood by the people who agree with you. It's lazy to not put the time into making the truths we believe comprehensible. We all need to hear Andy, even if you disagree with him.

Of course, I also think there are lot of topical preachers who are cheating too, but that is another story for another day.

Anyway, I have an open blog and allow open comments (none of which have been edited or deleted so far), but I think we can do better.

Thanks to many of you who are Reformed (or not Reformed but feel strongly about verse-by-verse preaching) who took the time to read Andy's thoughts an interact with them, rather than posting (at times) bizarre comments about how everyone who preaches differently has practically abandoned the faith. I appreciate the thoughtful comments and I appreciate you.

My hope still remains that there are enough mature people out there who can learn from others and that will become more evident as we work through the rest of the series in the coming days.

Again, my thanks to Andy for being so gracious and letting John and I do the interview in the first place.

My next post will continue the series "Andy Stanley on communication."

I am teaching at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School all day and won't be able to interact in the comments, but don't let that stop you for doing so. ;-)

If you missed the first post in this series, be sure to go back and read the introduction and Andy's philosophy of preaching. We had some good discussion on that post, and I am guessing we'll have even more on this one.

This five part interview reflects some of what you'll find in Andy's book, Communicating for a Change. It's a good book that should be read by anyone who speaks, teaches or preaches.

The book is actually number one in three different categories on Amazon.com right now. From Amazon:
Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,967 in Books
Popular in these categories: (What's this?)
#1 in Books > Religion & Spirituality > Christianity > Evangelism > Preaching
#1 in Books > Religion & Spirituality > Christianity > Christian Living > Leadership
#1 in Books > Religion & Spirituality > Christianity > Evangelism > Sermons